Wait, wait, wait...How about when you work for a reputable company that pays better than TProp rates for the ERJ, then you can talk all you want about our "craptastic" payscale at SkyWest! Why don't ya'll start with matching our Brasilia rates :rolleyes:

Wow that was an incredibly ignorant post.

So it's okay that the pay increase was nowhere near what it should have been as long as you're still making more than the next guy? That's an extremely short-sighted view.

This discussion is about Skywest.

[tangent]

I will agree that TSA has crappy wages (2nd year FO on the Brasilia is the only thing better than our rates) but we have a union with leverage that is negotiating on our behalf for a fair and equitable contract while not settling for something subpar.

[/tangent]

A 2nd year Captain here makes more than a 9 year Brasilia captain. And thats with our expired contract. I can guarantee you this pilot group will not accept a new contract without a meaningful and significant increase. Also, we don't fly DC-9 sized aircraft for RJ rates.

It's not the size that counts. It's what you do with it.

(Like only put 76 seats in.)

Oh...so UPS and FedEx guys must make crap then because theres only like 5 or 6 seats on most of their planes:rolleyes:

Its about revenue potential my man. If I'm selling 10-12 first class seats for double what I'm selling the other 60-66 seats for it might as well be an 80-86 seat airplane. Get it?

Mainly I just wanted to say something that I thought was funny. But thanks.

In any case, SkyWest mainly has 200s. Most of the 700s are United, which have 66 seats, of which 6 are first class. The Delta 700s have 70 coach seats. The Delta 900s, which we have few of, have 76 seats, of which 9 are first class. Only in rare cases do any of our planes have the revenue potential of a DC-9.

The fact that it is even within the realm of possibility is the problem.

There may come a day when we're all flying around in 100-120 seat airplanes for about what we're making now and codesharing with the legacies/majors or whoever. That would get around scope and I would say it's only a matter of time before the majors figure that out. British Airways is already doing it with their OpenSkies subsidiary flying 757s across the pond.

Now, I understand that is an extreme and would take a while to get there but regionals flying bigger and bigger airplanes (CRJ-900s/E-175s/E190s) is a slippery slope and the slide has already begun.

Wait, wait, wiat...How about when you work for a reputable company that has almost three quarters of a BILLION DOLLARS in the bank and going to make $150 MILLION this last year, then you can talk all you want about "craptastic" payscale at Skywest! Why don't ya'll start with not even matching ASA rates.

Wow that was an incredibly ignorant post.:rolleyes:

:p


For the record, I due envy Skywest. I wished my company was only half as successful for half as long so that they can have just half a billion dollars in the bank and making money this last year. That way we would have the leverage to try to raise the bar and not just settle for our 3% COLA.

Thank goodness that you're not settling with those crappy wages or anything subpar. BRAVO !!!!

Well, at least there's that UNION contract guaranteeing the crappy wages.

You go, girl !!!!

Thank goodness that you're not settling with your crappy wages or anything subpar. BRAVO !!!

Well, at least there's that UNION contract guaranteeing your crappy wages. Oh wait, can you even show me your UNION contract that guarantees your crappy wages?

You go, girl !!!

I hear ya, I'm not upset about taking an extra 40 pounds. Just want to make sure it is documented so no one gets in trouble. I was talking about magically appearing half weights etc. to make the numbers work. That is the connotation of "doctoring". Stuff you could get your butt in a sling for with the feds. As for the nature of the actual weight vs. paperwork, I agree. I don't think that 40 pounds extra is dagerous by any means, but there are ways to get it on board without getting yourself in trouble. That was my only point.

Ya, we skipped the middleman, and went straight to the wholesaler.

As to crappy wages at SkyWest, I think most of us here know that's not the case when we look at our W2's at the end of the year, compared to other regionals.

I would argue, however, that the industry as a whole is woefully underpaid, and whether union A, B, or C, or no union at all, it still is sad. Don't see that changing any time soon.

The key is to work together as a industry whole to better things. When you guys dont join in with everyone else then you cant work as a whole to fix things. As 1 larger group you can make a difference.. You guys are letting your mgmt team take advantage of you as a pilot group.

Think about this, how long did it take your mgmt team to sue DAL for not paying up? The did immediately, why is it that your mgmt team will fight for what they deserve but your pilot group wont? Think about it.

Even amongst the various unions that represent air carrier pilots, there's not unity; e.g., APA was vehemently against age 65, ALPA (after flip flopping) for it.

ALPA would have had a much better chance at SkyWest if they had their own house in order. And I do think that an in house union has a better chance than ALPA did, but I don't see that unifying pilots any more than APA, SWAPA, Teamsters, and ALPA are unified.

But, doesn't it get old belaboring union BS ? The vote is over, but they'll be another in 4 or 5 years, I GUARANTEE that. There'll be too many future 1.95% to pass up that attempt again, even if it does take a $5.3 million in the recruitment effort.

Why not save your sales pitch for then?

You quoted my question but then decided not to answer it, why is that? Your mgmt team fights for theirs but you just sit back and take it while your company makes more money than any other regional. Skywest should be the highest paid pilots in the regional sector.

Now feel free to answer my original question.:cool:

Why should i try a sales pitch if the majority of the people listening cant see past their nose, or upgrade time at a regional.....:eek:

Well, we're not exactly sitting back, but that's something I doubt we'll agree on.

I do agree, however, as I've said many, many times. If SkyWest is the biggest, and arguably one of the best, we should be paid the best, bar none.

Clearly my argument didn't win the day:o

What exactly in your opinion makes Skywest one of the best? And you still didnt really answer the question as to why your mgmt team fights for theirs but you settle for what they give you? Just a friendly discussion;)

Because their W-2's are always bigger than everyone else's, remember? :rolleyes:

I wish I could just delete a post I wrote, rather than have to write this.

So are you telling me that the Trans States Pilots fought (instead of just settling) for the current subpar contract?? I flew under it myself, and let me tell you, it was nothing to write home about...And for the record, I have no problem "settling" for something my Pilot group voted in. I don't completely agree with it, but I also don't lose any sleep over bringing the industry down at SkyWest :rolleyes:

Alpa won't try at skywest for many many more years. Even the alpa supporters at skywest have let go, so should the rest of you. Worry about your own airlines and leave us alone, we are happy and arn't bothering any of you.

By the way, if you airline sucks so bad why are our newhire classes made up of 90% former 121 alpa pilots?

Free ice cream.

ROTFL...made me spit Budweiser out of my nose dude!

I do that when I drink Budweiser too...stuff tastes nasty:D

Speaking of beer, have you guys seen that ultrasonic Guinness surger?

Supercool.

The "middleman" is also the one that gives you real leverage and forces your management into real "good faith bargaining." Without that middleman, you will not be able to get away with getting pay rates that brings you just under ASA pay rates. Especially considering the three quarters of a BILLION DOLLARS in the bank and making almost $150 MILLION last year.

By the way, I wouldn't bet that pilot's wages and conditions of employment is more than the total worth of some other regional contracts. Especially when you consider productivity.

The industry as a whole is underpaid and this vote to bring you just under ASA rates does NOT help considering the IMMENSE success of Skywest. It is sad that this will not see this fact change it any time soon.

ALPA would have had much better chance at Skywest if they had less people with your mentality there.

It doesnt get old to me "belaboring union BS." Organizing is an ongoing venture. And you are wrong about the money that dues bring in. Most regional MECs are subsidized by the major MECs. Its not the cash cow you say it is. It actually costs the association money to run many MECs. The few that do run positive put that money in the SMER account. But you already knew that.

You should be paid the best but without the leverage that the RLA gives a real union, you will NEVER get there. I don't know what argument you are talking about since you didn't vote for ALPA anyways. That is the only argument that would work.

Organizing is an ongoing process. Its not going to stop anytime soon. We worry about our own airlines and that is why we continue organizing. To many people, you do bother them.

From one union supporter to another, may I suggest an alternate route to getting more pilots on the union bandwagon.... Instead of telling us how great it is, and spending a TON of money on buying me sandwiches and pamphlets, why doesn't ALPA's focus more or their energies on their own airlines that are already union. ALPA needs to score some victories on contracts before 50 + 1 % of SkyWest guys will be convinced it's good for us. WAY too many guys at SkyWest have watched ALPA fail over and over, whether it be at Mesa/TSA or the general failure of ALPA to forsee the effect of RJ's and scope on the industry. They (former mesa/tsa/eagle/skyway/comair/asa/etc) came to SkyWest, and right or wrong, they have placed a large amount of blame on ALPA for the situation at their former employer. I understand the dynamics of the past 7 years haven't been kind to unions in general, but continuing to buy pilots at SkyWest sandwiches and pamphlets, and continuing to feed us the same lines will do little to bring ALPA here. I know I make it sound easier than it is, but ALPA IMO would win over more SkyWest pilots by winning at other carriers first. Then come back and talk to us. (Don't use the Xjet example either, it's one win out many losses lately, and even the Miami Dolphins managed to win one game this year.)

ASA got some work rules in their new contract that we had on property without a union. A minimum daily guarantee of 3:45, a duty rig and we get paid extra if they schedule over 12 hours. I also THINK their 401k or profit sharing isn't as good as ours. So before you go rant and rave how the UNION got ASA what they got, get ALL of the facts first.

I was very disappointed that we didn't get higher rates than ASA considering our performance numbers are much better. But, I did my part and voted no. I can't do anything else. Going on here and complaining about it more isn't going to make it better. It took us two months to get our new raters in place where it took five years for ASA. How long will it take for TSA, Mesa, Pinnacle and whoever else will be going into negotiations soon?

And no one ever answers the simple question... if a union is a powerful as you think, why are the majority of our classes filled with ex-121 ALPA guys?

Ok I didnt mean for this to turn into a NON UNION/ UNION discussion.. their have been many of that here before I simply wanted some answers to my original question..

Just out of curiosity, how long did you work at TSA? How much do you know about the contract that we work under? You obviously missed the point of my last post.

I don't know about experimental.... but I worked TSA for 8 months before being furloughed and picked up at SkyWest. My class of 40 at SkyWest had 11 TSA pilots in it, and I was the only one that was furloughed. After working at both places, I can tell you right now that the TSA contract isn't even close to what we have at SkyWest. Please get that new amazing contract out of Hulas before you complain about how small our pay raise was. You have ALOT of catching up to do. (And I hope you do, I have a lot of friends there.)

I agree, SkyWest is bigger, and going to get bigger. And ALPA, or whatever union, will see 1.95% as their future meal ticket. As Arnold says, "Ah'll beeee baaaack."



We're not quite "under" ASA rates... or over, either. And as you've heard from my fellow pilots here at SkyWest, even at those rates, we'll make more money than ASA, and a whole lot of other airlines.

Further, the folks who actually have to live with these pay and work rules are largely happy with them. Clearly, that's not the case at many ALPA carriers, 'cuz we get LOTS of them.

Why is ALPA not picketing Mesa EVERY DAMN DAY ???? Why are they not doing work slow downs, sick outs, and planning for a strike? Where are the lawsuits? Why is any ALPA carrier allowed to be so poor to its working men and women, without any large scale afront to that? Why are so many of those same men and women choosing a lateral move to a non-union carrier, with a 50% total attrition in ONE YEAR?

I could post a whole laundry list of ALPA issues, but in general, let me suggest that ALPA fix what they got, show us what they can do, then come talk to us.

So, I agree whole heartedly with your last statement; it's not going to change any time soon, and ALPA is leading the charge in mediocraty.



Our pilots are the problem !!!! Easy, get rid of a select 66% of the pilots !!!!! Wow, why didn't I think of that?



So, collectively we saved 'em money. Good to know. I wouldn't want to be a burden.




If that's our only hope, I guess the end is near. Darn it, I was just getting to like this place.



Here's a news flash. The last organizing drive here was a disruption to the company, due to the host of laws that make that possible. I understand why the laws are there.... with the thinking that a "bad rogue" company was victimizing their workforce, and the union would sweep in to save the day.

That's just not the case here. But ALPA continues the assault on SkyWest with their ongoing suit.... funny, no suits against Mesa. I heck, I forgot, they already pay dues. Why would they need to do anything there?

Finally, understand that I really don't see any union here in the next few years, and really only respond for pure entertainment.;)

Maybe the union BS is, in part, the answer to your question Grasshopper.

So what your saying is that you are a MGMT hopeful?

They're home most nights and probably make more.

geez.... enough of this BS already....... they voted... got what they wanted..... enough.

Maybe, but if they'd voted ALPA in all of their planes would have espresso makers by now. Clearly, SKW is a bunch of job-stealing pinkos.

Clearly indeed.

Each property is different than other properties. There are varying amount of leverage at each property. There is only so much that can be done at any given time at each property. This is more like a marathon than a sprint. It generally takes a lot longer to get back what was given back.

I'll stop using XJT or Horizon as an example if you stop using Mesa and Trans States as an example. But it is a good point. Each of these four companies have different managements with different set of circumstances and varying amount of financial success. And that is the key with Skywest. Skywest has been THEE most successful regional and that alone would give the pilots more leverage than any other pilot group has ever had a regional to help convince management to give just a little bit more of that three quarters of a BILLION DOLLARS they have a in the bank.


with almost $750 million in the bank and making almost $150 million last year, you guys should be paid just a little bit more than what you got. But with no leverage, you will probably never get up to the middle tier carriers.

To answer your question, leverage is different from property to property. With a company that has an alter ego airline, most of the leverage has to be used just to bring those pilots into the same seniority list. With another property that isn't as financially successful, you just dont have the leverage that you would have if the company had almost three quarters of a BILLION DOLLARS in the bank and making almost $150 million last year.

You clearly don't understand how the dues money is distributed.

So which is it? Are you under or over ASA rates? Why aren't you over ASA rates anyways? Why can't management pay you guys just a little bit more than 1% COLA with almost $750 million in the bank and making alomst $150 million last year? Because they don't want to and dont have to.

I wouldn't be so quick as to say just because this pay proposal passed that a majority of the pilots are largely happy with them.

Many of those things are happening a lot of different places. Pilots are picketing Pinnacle management, planning for strikes, and filing lawsuits. The only thing ALPA is NOT doing is excessing self help because that would be highly illegal at this point. You should know all about this being a NATCA member. Why is NATCA allowed to be so poor to its working men and women, without any large scale afront to that? You know that things have to be done in a lawful way and that ALPA is not allowing any of that to happen just as NATCA is not allowing it to happen as well without both doing everything lawfully possible. ALPA, like NATCA has a communications department that are talking to reporters everyday with articles written everyday in newspapers all over the country everyday. The both have a PAC and lobby congress on a daily basis. A lot of this stuff is done behind the scenes as you very well know from your NATCA experience.

Granted, ALPA is by no means close to being perfect. It has its many issues. But a union is the only means to provide Skywest the means to get just a little bit more of that three quarters of a BILLION DOLLARS pie.

ALPA is leading the charge in mediocraty? Gee, then what does that say about Skywest?:rolleyes:

Not the pilots but your mentality is the problem.

It may or may have not been a monetary burden. I would guess that at first it would be. But the it would be self sustaining. The point is that regardless of the monetary burden, it would still be beneficial to the profession to have you as well.

The end to meritocracy could come in the future. And if so, you'll like it even better there.;)

Well I'll apologize to Skywest management for the right to organize given to workers by congress. I wished it wasn't as much of a burden on management. Maybe if they concentrated on the day to day operations rather than researching, witting, proof reading, editing emails with a lot of disinformation, half truths, and blatant dishonesty, they wouldn't have felt as burdened.

Not a rouge company. Just a company with almost three quarters of a BILLION DOLLARS in the bank and making almost $150 MILLION last year to share just a little bit of it with the pilots while also having the protections of a real contract.

No suits against Mesa because their pilots have a contract in accordance with the RLA which sends disagreements to a neutral arbitrator. Its becoming more clear that you just dont have the fundamental understanding of how these things work.

Clearly, and keep up the work as a NATCAvist.;)