Crazy ATC Instructions
 

Recently I've experienced a Rash of "Crazy ATC Instructions." example, "Turn Right HDG330 for traffic Descend and maintain FL250 cross WTEVA intersection at or Below 11,000 then descend to 9000 ." So you're like....Why didn't you just say, turn RT HDG330 Descend PD to 9000:rolleyes:????

OR the one that leaves you clueless "Descend to 9000 Slow to 200, At 9000 Turn Right 10 degrees and tell me that heading, expect 5000 in 5mins." You're like PHEW!!! Do you want me to Slow now or at 9K and why don't you want me to turn 10RT and tell you the HDG now????? Read it back 2 times then He/She's mad because you don't really understand what the Hell they want you to do.

Is this only happening on flights I'm on or is this a common practice. I'm not sure what's going on or why these tactics are being used but it's dangerous and it's a SET UP to get YOU in Trouble.

Has anyone else seen this lately?

This is probably specific to one terminal area? which center or terminal area was this? it might have something to do with the fact that radios are extremely busy these days so they bark out all the instructions at once, its hard enough as it is to check in.

on a similar note, i suspect that in the future in busy places like NY and Chicago, youll be told to monitor rather than contact the next controller on a handoff

There are 11,000 certified controllers, with 3700 trainees right now.

A lower "B scale" for new hires since Sep 3, 2006. Lot's of other internal issues.

So, remember, you have to accept that clearance... or not.

Of course going into DCA you just get the Eldee3 arrival and you hardly hear anything over the radio...BUT if you don't have VNav, you get to step down 1000ft at a time every few miles or so...like a long a$$ nonprecision approach from 15000ft...

I've seen it across the board... Yesterday alone I was giving crazy instructions coming out of MSY by Houston CTR going into CVG by App and on the way to BDL by Boston CTR.....

somewhere I think... even the FAA regulations only permit a controller to give three instructions..... but who is counting.

Hey Herc, did you talk to PW yet? our first -400 just showed up this week. 2nd one coming in may

I called and left him a message. He is traveling to LA this weekend for a job Fair...i will try again tomorrow before he leaves.

If I wasnt flying saturday, I would JS to LA to see him.

SWEET!!! -400s.....

they must need guys bad if theyre attending job fairs

The other day at CLT I was instructed on downwind at 7000 in the CRJ-200 to slow to 150 knots. I said, "Unable". She repeated the instruction and I told her I was not flying a helicopter and can't slow to that speed on this part of the approach. No final flaps and gear down at 7000 feet on downwind.

When I landed I was told the call the dreaded number. I did and talked to the supervisor in a very calm and apologetic voice. I think he understood exactly why I couldn't slow the CRJ-200 to that speed.

I apologised and said that I was out of line to say in a snotty way that I couldn't fly that slow because I wasn't a helicopter and he thought the whole thing was funny.

SLC has been training ground controllers lately. Which usually means one set of taxi instruction quickly followed by another voice cutting in and saying "SkyWest XXX, hold position!" and then a completely different set, or something like that...crazy at first but I think we're all getting used to it.

I went into NAS Pensacola one time for the overhead break and had a trainee controller on the tower frequency. I had been cleared for the overhead and when I hit the initial I was told to follow the T-34C on mid-downwind. I had to chuckle to myself as I requested a depart and re-enter for the overhead and was approved.

After coming back around to land and during the roll out I politely informed the young controller that I was unable to follow a T-34C in the pattern at any time; 135 kts in the pattern or so doesn't mesh well with 80 kts :)

USMCFLYR

better than the skywest crew at ORD last year that said "unable" when told to slow to 180 on the downwind. THAT was hilarious, and embarrassing to listen to at the same time.

He/she needed you to turn and wanted to give you as much lattitude as possible on your descent. I would interpret the instructions to mean: "I need you eventually at 9000. I would give you PD but I have crossing traffic ahead and at WTEVA, so do it this way."

1. Descend to 9000.
2. Slow to 200
3. turn 10 degrees
4. Say heading
5 expect 5 in five
Why #4? Maybe radically different winds aloft (frontal passage). Idon't know, but he needs it. So I add that three second radio call to my "do" list.
#5? Hmmm... maybe for lost comms protection? Remember highest of MEA, Expected or Assigned? Or maybe just as a courtesy...


Read them back, and do what you read back, and you will be fine.

a speed not less than 170 knots.
 

They need to read their own rules, to wit:


2/16/06 7110.65R

Chapter 5, Section 7
PDF page 241 of 492

Speed Adjustment 5−7−3
TO MACH (Mach number),
or
(number of knots) KNOTS.
NOTE−
When specifying descent prior to speed reduction, consider
the maximum speed requirements specified in 14 CFR
Section 91.117. It may be necessary for the pilot to level off
temporarily and reduce speed prior to descending below
10,000 feet MSL.
d. Specify combined speed/altitude fix crossing
restrictions.
PHRASEOLOGY−
CROSS (fix) AT AND MAINTAIN (altitude) AT (specified
speed) KNOTS.
EXAMPLE−
“Cross Robinsville at and maintain six thousand at
two three zero knots.”
REFERENCE−
FAAO 7110.65, Numbers Usage, Para 2−4−17.
FAAO 7110.65, Altitude Information, Para 4−5−7.
5−7−3. MINIMA
When assigning airspeeds, use the following
recommended minima:
a. To aircraft operating between FL 280 and
10,000 feet, a speed not less than 250 knots or the
equivalent Mach number.
NOTE−
1. On a standard day the Mach numbers equivalent to
250 knots CAS (subject to minor variations) are:
FL 240−0.6
FL 250−0.61
FL 260−0.62
FL 270−0.64
FL 280−0.65
FL 290−0.66.
2. If a pilot is unable to comply with the speed assignment,
the pilot will advise.
b. When an operational advantage will be
realized, speeds lower than the recommended
minima may be applied.
c. To arrival aircraft operating below 10,000 feet:
1. Turbojet aircraft. A speed not less than
210 knots; except when the aircraft is within 20 flying
miles of the runway threshold of the airport of
intended landing, a speed not less than 170 knots.
2. Reciprocating engine and turboprop aircraft.
A speed not less than 200 knots; except when the
aircraft is within 20 flying miles of the runway
threshold of the airport of intended landing, a speed
not less than 150 knots.
d. Departures:
1. Turbojet aircraft. A speed not less than
230 knots.
2. Reciprocating engine and turboprop aircraft.
A speed not less than 150 knots.
e. Helicopters. A speed not less than 60 knots.
REFERENCE−
FAAO 7110.65, Methods, Para 5−7−2.
5−7−4. TERMINATION
Advise aircraft when speed adjustment is no longer
needed.
PHRASEOLOGY−
RESUME NORMAL SPEED.
NOTE−
An instruction to “resume normal speed” does not delete
speed restrictions that are applicable to published
procedures of upcoming segments of flight, unless
specifically stated by ATC. This does not relieve the pilot
of those speed restrictions which are applicable to 14 CFR
Section 91.117.

read it again.... the sub pp before your highlight states:

b. When an operational advantage will be
realized, speeds lower than the recommended
minima may be applied.

Yes, that is correct. There are minimum speeds that ATC can assign. But they can assign anything if they need. If a pilot says unable, then that solves the question. If they assign me 150kts when I'm 10 miles out, I'll do it if thats what it takes for me to shoot the approach. I'm eventually going to be down to 130-140 anyway, so who cares.

i'm gonna need to brush up on 91.117 after i get out of this skyhawk....

The other day going into D.C. at FL250 I was asked to Slow to My Slowest Practicable speed. I don't know but I probably get the stick shaker at about 170 at that altitude????:rolleyes:

You should have a chart for that in your manual, but I wouldn't go below .68 in a jet without checking the chart. The charted min speeds for the CRJ are surprising low.

So? I don't get what the complaint is for here? ATC gave you the option of what that speed is. It happens often in the NE, get use to it.

Practicable –adjective
1. capable of being done, effected, or put into practice, with the available means; feasible

So would the Stick Shaker Qualify as Practicable?

No, it doesn't that's the point. Didn't they teach you that at ATP? :rolleyes: Sorry, I don't carry a Webster's Dictionary with me when I fly. When you get some real experience you'll understand what they mean. Good thing you weren't single pilot, I guess.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...5/atc0507.html

A little reading for you. I suggest you petition the FAA to change their training program.

That's very ironic that this came up. A couple of days ago in SLC, ATC told me to make short final and cleared to land on 34L. I repeated back, cleared to land 34L. ATC said "roger." 20 Ft. before touchdown I was told to wave off, that I was cleared for 35, and that I misread them!!!! Scared the crap out of me.

Should have known...... You're Super Pilot Slice, you know the 7110, they taught you that wherever you got your training!!! LOL, you're right though good thing I wasn't flying by myself. EGO TRIPS!

Well next time you hear ATC assign you 150 kts and you say unable you can soon expect "turn right heading 090" and head to the back of the line. Put some flaps out and stop whining.

It's really nothing more than common sense, if that makes me a super pilot, then so be it. Are you trying to further the argument for those of us against low time pilots in airline cockpits? If so, then keep up the good work!

I know not to go to the Shaker "Big Guy," and I think you're the one who's making the argument. The post was informative until you had to give yourself a confidence booster. Thanks for the Info though man the link you gave me says NOTE-
It is the pilot's responsibility and prerogative to refuse speed adjustment that he/she considers excessive or contrary to the aircraft's operating specifications.
FYI I knew this before you gave me this "experience," but thanks anyway. :D You're doing the Aviation Industry a great service by teaching us Low Time Pilots in Airline Cockpits. You need a Trophy or better yet someone should get you a couple Plaques!

There.... Hopes that makes you feel like a BIGGER man, if you know what I mean!

Nowhere in our approach profile are we allowed to go full flaps on a downwind leg. I got the turn you are talking about and I don't care one bit. I am paid by the minute. Our approach speed for that leg was 146 knots. That's final approach. Inside the marker. Not downwind at 7000. If I am unable, I am unable. End of story. As the other post showed, 150 is 20 knots below what they can request anyway.

Like I said, I am paid by the minute. Extend my downwind? Bring it on! $$$$

What is informative about this post? It wreaks of naivete and is a pointless complaint. Btw, you'll need thicker skin if you're going to make it long term in aviation.

Ok Slice you win...... Thx for the Info!

I'd just never heard this one before at this altitude. Now that I have the "exprience," I know.

Being asked to slow to slowest practical is common in the northeast at all altitudes.

this bickering is pointless. keiundraj, you wouldnt last 5 seconds on an incentive ride in slice's F-16. youd be puking all over yourself. For god's sake, the man has most likely killed dozens to hundreds of people in combat. respect that. sure, slice should not talk down to you perhaps in the manner that he did, but hey, when you strap into the world's premier single-engine fighter, you do get some bragging rights.

U know Ghilis He puts his pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us! He flies a F-16 whoppdy do. I have a good friend that flies the F-18 Super Hornet and he's just as normal as anyone else. What makes what airplane you fly hold merit in an argument anyway. That's for guys with small wieners that need something to booster their ego! Maybe you're one of those guys??
I guess you needed a little confidence booster too! U had nothing to do with this apparently he left it along and I did to. STOP CO-SIGNING!

What does this have to do with ' Crazy ATC Instructions ' ? This sounds more like a ****ing contest at this point

nope im not a fighter pilot, and i dont have half the hours that either of you two have, but i will say that sometimes its ok to show some humility when someone more experienced than you has something to offer up. besides... im just trying to spice up the regional board a little bit, its been boring since the good old saabarowski days. calm down why are you mad anyway?

It's for fun.

off topic but..... keiundraj, I think you mail is still going to an apartment complex.... but dont worry I threw away all your home videos.... after I watched them. Good music haha.