Mesa-Why the hate?
04-04-2008 | 02:08 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,963
Likes: 0
From: SkyWest Capt.
I think the point was being made against the lowest of the low regionals. I compare Mesa to "decent regionals" as "decent regionals" are seen by majors.
Regional pilots fly 50-76 seat airplanes for lower wages than would've been attanted by a major pay scale.
Mesa pilots fly the same airplanes we do, but for money that is far inferior to what we make. (not to mention work rules).
The choice to fly for mesa is exactly that...a choice...the pilots who signed up, knew exactly what they were getting into.
Above all, the even more simple fact is, is that the legacy carrier pilots are just as much to blame for how the industry has turned, as the regionals. The cards were played by the legacy guys when they refused to fly the RJs, it's that simple.
Regional pilots fly 50-76 seat airplanes for lower wages than would've been attanted by a major pay scale.
Mesa pilots fly the same airplanes we do, but for money that is far inferior to what we make. (not to mention work rules).
The choice to fly for mesa is exactly that...a choice...the pilots who signed up, knew exactly what they were getting into.
Above all, the even more simple fact is, is that the legacy carrier pilots are just as much to blame for how the industry has turned, as the regionals. The cards were played by the legacy guys when they refused to fly the RJs, it's that simple.
In other words, you need 121 regional or Military time in order to get looked at by a Legacy, yes some (not as many as from the 121 world) make it from the Corporate world but just how many jobs are their out their flying a Citation, BeachJet, Gulfstream or CL-601 (etc) where you can upgrade in the same time frame you can at the regional’s? If you have Baron or Navajo time the odds of you getting an interview is impossible. So if it’s wrong to fly for a regional and you weren’t a military pilot, how else are you to get hired by a Legacy?
Last edited by JetJock16; 04-04-2008 at 02:19 PM.
04-04-2008 | 04:37 PM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,899
Likes: 0
From: Leftof longitudinal
Excellent post! All should take note and we could improve life for all of us. It won't happen over night, but the path should be clear and we al should stay on a path of education and persistence.
Wrong...the pilot group themselves.
Granted, yes we have an atrocious group of upper-level management, but the pilot group has such a tremendous lack of respect for itself...making it nearly impossible for a rock-solid, stand-up-for-itself sort of a union to develop. It is this deep sense of low-morale that is the true root of our lack of ability to fight.
We do not show up to work and think everything is peachy keen with the way we are treated and how the operation runs. True, there are rookie FO's out there that are uneducated about the fundamentals/economics of the industry...they are at EVERY carrier; not just Mesa. Yes, we have a tendancy to pick up some pilots that are just UNABLE to get jobs at the other carriers for various reasons, the majority of new FO's are just as green and uneducated about the industry as the new hires at XJT, SkyWest, Republic...and the list goes on. We at Mesa just have and unusually difficult job of showing new-hires that these conditions are not what it's all about. We have to educate them about the cultures at other carriers and what we DON'T have at Mesa. This is a daunting task that is easier said then done.
The most common conversation in any Mesa flight deck is about the problems which we face and what needs to be done to fix them; however, respect for one's self, career, and work enviroment is what really needs to be preached. These qualities are prominent amongst the pilots leading solid MEC's. You may ask: "Well, why haven't these people stepped forward at Mesa to lead the union?" Good leaders have become statistics of vicious attrtion at our company; therefore, the union leadership turns over on a fairly regular basis and we are back at square-one. The attitude has to change: Don't try and burn it down, fight to make it better place to work and have a career. That's a key dfiference between Mesa and other regional airlines: You can make a life-long career at other regional airlines if you choose to do so. I'm not saying we don't any pilots at Mesa who have chosen to do so, but these are the guy/gals that are key to changing the company...people who are here for the rest of their aviation careers who have the respect for themselves, career, and family and want to make Mesa a better place to work (for long term)
Until we get union leadership that is constructive and understands the importance of EDUCATION...nothing will change. If we build on those two very important qualities...unity will increase and the level of agressiveness will pick up dramatically. With all this comes standing up to management and BALLS.
Wishing and publicly rooting for a company to put its pilots on the streets and going out of business is absolutely rediculous. We should all have each other's backs in our fights versus management and should be preaching unity amongst each other and figuring out solutions to the current issues we ALL face.
The mentality on this forum is sometimes very disturbing ..."my regional is better than yours" and "this company deserves to go out of business" and "that pilot group sucks." If this type of attitude continues, the future of the regional segment of the airline industry may not be so bright.
Granted, yes we have an atrocious group of upper-level management, but the pilot group has such a tremendous lack of respect for itself...making it nearly impossible for a rock-solid, stand-up-for-itself sort of a union to develop. It is this deep sense of low-morale that is the true root of our lack of ability to fight.
We do not show up to work and think everything is peachy keen with the way we are treated and how the operation runs. True, there are rookie FO's out there that are uneducated about the fundamentals/economics of the industry...they are at EVERY carrier; not just Mesa. Yes, we have a tendancy to pick up some pilots that are just UNABLE to get jobs at the other carriers for various reasons, the majority of new FO's are just as green and uneducated about the industry as the new hires at XJT, SkyWest, Republic...and the list goes on. We at Mesa just have and unusually difficult job of showing new-hires that these conditions are not what it's all about. We have to educate them about the cultures at other carriers and what we DON'T have at Mesa. This is a daunting task that is easier said then done.
The most common conversation in any Mesa flight deck is about the problems which we face and what needs to be done to fix them; however, respect for one's self, career, and work enviroment is what really needs to be preached. These qualities are prominent amongst the pilots leading solid MEC's. You may ask: "Well, why haven't these people stepped forward at Mesa to lead the union?" Good leaders have become statistics of vicious attrtion at our company; therefore, the union leadership turns over on a fairly regular basis and we are back at square-one. The attitude has to change: Don't try and burn it down, fight to make it better place to work and have a career. That's a key dfiference between Mesa and other regional airlines: You can make a life-long career at other regional airlines if you choose to do so. I'm not saying we don't any pilots at Mesa who have chosen to do so, but these are the guy/gals that are key to changing the company...people who are here for the rest of their aviation careers who have the respect for themselves, career, and family and want to make Mesa a better place to work (for long term)
Until we get union leadership that is constructive and understands the importance of EDUCATION...nothing will change. If we build on those two very important qualities...unity will increase and the level of agressiveness will pick up dramatically. With all this comes standing up to management and BALLS.
Wishing and publicly rooting for a company to put its pilots on the streets and going out of business is absolutely rediculous. We should all have each other's backs in our fights versus management and should be preaching unity amongst each other and figuring out solutions to the current issues we ALL face.
The mentality on this forum is sometimes very disturbing ..."my regional is better than yours" and "this company deserves to go out of business" and "that pilot group sucks." If this type of attitude continues, the future of the regional segment of the airline industry may not be so bright.
04-04-2008 | 07:01 PM
#56
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 45,132
Likes: 797
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
Wrong...the pilot group themselves.
Granted, yes we have an atrocious group of upper-level management, but the pilot group has such a tremendous lack of respect for itself...making it nearly impossible for a rock-solid, stand-up-for-itself sort of a union to develop. It is this deep sense of low-morale that is the true root of our lack of ability to fight.
We do not show up to work and think everything is peachy keen with the way we are treated and how the operation runs. True, there are rookie FO's out there that are uneducated about the fundamentals/economics of the industry...they are at EVERY carrier; not just Mesa. Yes, we have a tendancy to pick up some pilots that are just UNABLE to get jobs at the other carriers for various reasons, the majority of new FO's are just as green and uneducated about the industry as the new hires at XJT, SkyWest, Republic...and the list goes on. We at Mesa just have and unusually difficult job of showing new-hires that these conditions are not what it's all about. We have to educate them about the cultures at other carriers and what we DON'T have at Mesa. This is a daunting task that is easier said then done.
The most common conversation in any Mesa flight deck is about the problems which we face and what needs to be done to fix them; however, respect for one's self, career, and work enviroment is what really needs to be preached. These qualities are prominent amongst the pilots leading solid MEC's. You may ask: "Well, why haven't these people stepped forward at Mesa to lead the union?" Good leaders have become statistics of vicious attrtion at our company; therefore, the union leadership turns over on a fairly regular basis and we are back at square-one. The attitude has to change: Don't try and burn it down, fight to make it better place to work and have a career. That's a key dfiference between Mesa and other regional airlines: You can make a life-long career at other regional airlines if you choose to do so. I'm not saying we don't any pilots at Mesa who have chosen to do so, but these are the guy/gals that are key to changing the company...people who are here for the rest of their aviation careers who have the respect for themselves, career, and family and want to make Mesa a better place to work (for long term)
Until we get union leadership that is constructive and understands the importance of EDUCATION...nothing will change. If we build on those two very important qualities...unity will increase and the level of agressiveness will pick up dramatically. With all this comes standing up to management and BALLS.
Wishing and publicly rooting for a company to put its pilots on the streets and going out of business is absolutely rediculous. We should all have each other's backs in our fights versus management and should be preaching unity amongst each other and figuring out solutions to the current issues we ALL face.
The mentality on this forum is sometimes very disturbing ..."my regional is better than yours" and "this company deserves to go out of business" and "that pilot group sucks." If this type of attitude continues, the future of the regional segment of the airline industry may not be so bright.
Granted, yes we have an atrocious group of upper-level management, but the pilot group has such a tremendous lack of respect for itself...making it nearly impossible for a rock-solid, stand-up-for-itself sort of a union to develop. It is this deep sense of low-morale that is the true root of our lack of ability to fight.
We do not show up to work and think everything is peachy keen with the way we are treated and how the operation runs. True, there are rookie FO's out there that are uneducated about the fundamentals/economics of the industry...they are at EVERY carrier; not just Mesa. Yes, we have a tendancy to pick up some pilots that are just UNABLE to get jobs at the other carriers for various reasons, the majority of new FO's are just as green and uneducated about the industry as the new hires at XJT, SkyWest, Republic...and the list goes on. We at Mesa just have and unusually difficult job of showing new-hires that these conditions are not what it's all about. We have to educate them about the cultures at other carriers and what we DON'T have at Mesa. This is a daunting task that is easier said then done.
The most common conversation in any Mesa flight deck is about the problems which we face and what needs to be done to fix them; however, respect for one's self, career, and work enviroment is what really needs to be preached. These qualities are prominent amongst the pilots leading solid MEC's. You may ask: "Well, why haven't these people stepped forward at Mesa to lead the union?" Good leaders have become statistics of vicious attrtion at our company; therefore, the union leadership turns over on a fairly regular basis and we are back at square-one. The attitude has to change: Don't try and burn it down, fight to make it better place to work and have a career. That's a key dfiference between Mesa and other regional airlines: You can make a life-long career at other regional airlines if you choose to do so. I'm not saying we don't any pilots at Mesa who have chosen to do so, but these are the guy/gals that are key to changing the company...people who are here for the rest of their aviation careers who have the respect for themselves, career, and family and want to make Mesa a better place to work (for long term)
Until we get union leadership that is constructive and understands the importance of EDUCATION...nothing will change. If we build on those two very important qualities...unity will increase and the level of agressiveness will pick up dramatically. With all this comes standing up to management and BALLS.
Wishing and publicly rooting for a company to put its pilots on the streets and going out of business is absolutely rediculous. We should all have each other's backs in our fights versus management and should be preaching unity amongst each other and figuring out solutions to the current issues we ALL face.
The mentality on this forum is sometimes very disturbing ..."my regional is better than yours" and "this company deserves to go out of business" and "that pilot group sucks." If this type of attitude continues, the future of the regional segment of the airline industry may not be so bright.
Philosophically I agree with most of this, but I have to admit that mesa's continued existence causes me some heartache. The pilots are more victims than anything, but I feel they are mostly helpless to improve anything, especially now. Most of them, including my friends, would be better off not working there...even if they don't realize it.
The company recently made a few tentative steps to improve pilot conditions, but only after suffering 50% attrition in 2007...it wasn't the mesa pilots who made that happen, it was the lamas. The pilot supply/demand equation will probably swing in ornstein's favor shortly, and like he always says..."If I have a stack of resumes, I'm paying pilots too much".
I've worked at real companies (in and out of avaition), and it's deeply disturbing to me to think that a guy like JO might be able prosper by running an organiztion the way he does...it doesn't bode well for America, much less the airline biz. Only liquidation or drastic reorganization will fix the disease that is MAG.
And if you're never worked there...you probably can't really understand how bad it is.
04-05-2008 | 10:25 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
From: I was acquired, Not Hired
Back in 1993, when Orville, Wilbur, and I worked at Suburban/Alleghney Commuter/USAir Express (all one-in-the same), we, as a wholly-owned subsidary of USAir handed them a 95%+ strike vote and intended on walking.
Although unconfirmed, we had heard that USAir contracted to Florida Gulf (MESA) to sit in hotel rooms on the eve of the strike to fly our routes the next day.
However, <factual evidence> the strike was averted we were awarded a fair contract and USAir in turn farmed out 1/2 of our flying and every First Officer received a furlough notice and half the Capts. downgraded to the right seat.
Where did all that flying go to ? You guessed it Florida Gulf-Mesa Airlines.
I spent almost 5 years at a commuter airline and never upgraded, while I watched my job and upgrade farmed out to someone that could do it cheaper than I.
Grumble Grumble..I knew I should've had a V-8,
FF
Although unconfirmed, we had heard that USAir contracted to Florida Gulf (MESA) to sit in hotel rooms on the eve of the strike to fly our routes the next day.
However, <factual evidence> the strike was averted we were awarded a fair contract and USAir in turn farmed out 1/2 of our flying and every First Officer received a furlough notice and half the Capts. downgraded to the right seat.
Where did all that flying go to ? You guessed it Florida Gulf-Mesa Airlines.
I spent almost 5 years at a commuter airline and never upgraded, while I watched my job and upgrade farmed out to someone that could do it cheaper than I.
Grumble Grumble..I knew I should've had a V-8,
FF
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