Mesa-Why the hate?
 

I don't want to open a can of worms here, and please be gentle because I am not an airline pilot yet. I am almost finished with my private and then I will move on to my instrument rating afterwards so I am neutral and uninformed on this subject. Now to my question: Why is it that so many people on this forum hate Mesa Airlines or "MAG" as you call it? Remember I don't know ANYTHING about any of this so just inform me don't rip me.

Thanks and yes I am awesome.

Many discussions about this, just use the "search" function.

Everyone at Mesa is willing to do other RJ pilot's job for less. UNDERCUTTING. The US airline industry is run on capitalism. If management can find pilots that will do the job for $5 less per hour and work more days per month, those companies will get the flying (Mesa, Colgan, gojet).

Remember your first job. Lets say you were paid $500 per week. Just imagine if someone with a Mesa uniform went up to your boss and said "I'll do that job for $380 per week". The next day your job security was jeopardized and that work gets awarded to the underbidder.

Sure people on here will say that "Mesa pilots are trying to get a better contract". Folks its not going to happen. Mesa management and Jonathan Ornstein happens to have a company culture that is one of the most anti-pilot companies in the country. As you can see, JO would rather park aircraft than pay pilots more and let them be at home more with their families.

I know this because I worked at Mesa for a short time and left, not wanting any part in bringing down this profession. Mesa is disgusting, and most people there don't even know it. They settle for less because they don't realize how they SHOULD be treated as professional airline pilots.

Mesa
 

People hate Mesa because it is a glimpse into the future of every airline job. Mesa has learned how to squeeze their employees for every penny. Armed with low costs Mesa is then able to grow and effectively compete.

Mesa and companies like it have proved to the industry that pilots, F/A's and the rest will work for next to nothing and will put up with a lot in order to remain in aviation. Other companies are being forced into similar practices or go under.

SkyHigh

It's hard to bargain with your company and ask for money when they know plenty of pilots out there will work for much less(Mesa). I'm sure it has been said in the above posts..

While I see what you're trying to say here, where does this logic place 90% of regional pilots nowadays, having flown mainline routes for less pay?

Ummmm. Have you read the news lately? Mesa is hardly growing or competing effectively.

Their low pay/low respect structure is blowing up in their face with terrible financials, low completions, poor on-times, and lost contracts.

Do we really need yet another thread about this? Just do a search and you will find enough info to burn through your afternoon that would answer your questions.

interesting...while I am not really going to respond to the mesa stuff because I know nothing about it there is something I want to address. The airline/aviation industry looks bleak right now because of recession, rising oil prices, and inferior work conditions. I realize I'm an outsider and am not extremely well-versed in Airline economics and policy but there are factors that some of you might not be looking at. I've tried to explain before how complex the oil and gas business is and how it is inevitable that the price will come down. There are other sources of oil in our own country that have not been exploited and when the government decides to stop griping at the US oil companies about it and open up these sources of oil we will see high prices. Innovation will also play a role(i.e. Gas to Liquid fuel, coal liquefication, etc.) The market will find the next source of energy it always has propelled us forward. However, the airline industry will, in a few years, have a mass exodus of pilots due to retirement(baby boomers). This will open up jobs for pilots and I believe return market and QOL conditions to previous levels. If this downturn in the economy is allowed to fully play itself out then we will pull out of the recession and things will get better. That is how markets work and they will ALWAYS go up and down. If you live in a free social and economic society this is how things are.

Kansas I realize that you are in that 10% (or less) not flying mainline routes. I think the kind of flying you are doing is honorable, but with that being said not everyone can go to work for $15,000 a year... you are just hardcore! :cool:

Besides EAS routes, What is the answer to getting into this industry without "stealing" flying or undercutting anyone? Not all of us are qualified to fly for the military.

Mesa is having significant problems. There is a point to which being miserly with your employee groups ceases to impact the bottom line in a positive way and insteads affects it negatively. In this age of "consolidation", "Synergy", and "Economies of scale" it is largely ignored that sometimes making sure your employees are paid ENOUGH is just as important as "not overpaying for labor". The economic cycle will take care of this. An interesting analysis to go through would be to compare what Mesa spends on training due to their extreme turnover, compared to what they would spend if they had normal attrition but a good contract. Training expenses and turnover hit the bottom line too - and in a financial statement numbers are numbers - doesn't matter if expenses are "salary and wages" or "training expenses". Finding a regional that can balance these needs on the balance sheet is a tricky thing - not sure if any really make it work? Would be interested in discussing "What regionals make this work and how do they do it" rather that "Mesa or xyz Regional sucks".

There needs to be a sticky thread at the top of this forum explaining about Mesa. These types of threads are getting old. It would take 5 minutes to search any aviation forum or google to find out this information.

True, yet incredibly narrow-minded in the grand scheme of things. Answer this question: Who disrespects the Mesa pilot group the most?

That's simple.........................Mgmnt!

As long as we're on the subject, perhaps somebody can explain why Mesa's pilot group is unable to improve QOL, work rules, and wages through:
* enforcement of their existing contract (it gets violated every day, doesn't it?)
* collective bargaining
* legal actions against the company

I'll admit that I don't know much about labor organizations (I'm only halfway through Flying the Line), but isn't being organized supposed to provide power to the pilots to prevent such abuse?

I seriously do not understand why they (the pilots) just bend over and take it..... especially when they have the resources of their labor organization available.

IM SO SICK OF READING POSTS ABOUT HOW BAD MESA IS!!!!

Can't this company just go under!!! I tell you that the day it happens will be a day to celebrate.

It's not the company it's the upper level Mgmnt team that they’re unable to get rid of. Wishing for the company to go under is wish "ill will" on over 5000 pilots, FA's, dispatchers, support staff, ground crew, admin, Mx, etc.

But hey, as long as you get to stop reading about it.

Wow, where do we start with this one?
* enforcement: we have iron-clad scope language. IRON-CLAD. Some have said it is the best in any ALPA contract (I couldn't say). We gave up EVERYTHING... EV-UH-REY-THANG on our last contract negotiations to get it and kill Freedom A. WHY, I say, why is it that our scope keeps getting violated then??? Why?
* collective bargaining... bwahhahahaha! :D You can only bargain when you have leverage. You'd think we would have leverage with the 800 pilots who quit last year. Heck, it was like a gradual strike against the company. Naw. It wasn't even a blip on mgts radar as far as contract talks go.
* legal actions... OK, this is the one I wanted to get into. We (ALPA) have taken I don't know how many issues to court to NO AVAIL. I don't care what they say, we lost the Harris deal. We lost the 700-900 base pay deal. We will lose the ERJ holdback deal (or simply get pennies on the dollar). After you have your tukus handed to you time and again for valid arguments you begin to not really care any longer.

So, there you have it.
:eek:

Some of it has to do with circumstances, some of it with demographics.

JO always seems to arrange for some bad news when negotiation time rolls around...this puts labor on the defensive.

Many mesa pilots are less-then-enthusiastic about upsetting the apple-cart...

Junior FO's are often super-low time, which means they have little industry knowledge or experience. They are afraid for their jobs because they don't have the time to get another one.

Senior FO's/Junior CA's are more likley to stand up for themselves, but they have also invested a significant amount of time at mesa and would really like to get their 1300 hours TPIC and move on before the company implodes.

Super-senior CA's (who usually run the union) actually make pretty good money by regional standards...they sure don't want to start over, so they will be reluctant to strike when the company is on the rocks. Plus JO is always willing to throw a few bucks at the top of the pay scale (wink, wink).

Industry Rejects: Mesa hires folks nobody else would touch due to background or other issues...these people really don't want mesa to fold.

Also I hate to say it, but I have met quite a few characters over there who don't have the same level of initiative or self-respect as the typical pilot you run into. A lot of the good people leave mesa early, especially lately. Of course there are good folks in the pilot group, but not as many as there might be at other companies.

When I left I had concluded that there was no way in heck the pilot group as a whole would muster the nads to walk...I'm still hoping to be proved wrong, but I wasn't going to stick around for 6 years just to find out.

YES IT IS A MANAGMENT ISSUE!!! You think all of a sudden the managment wil go "OHHHH Sorry we didnt realize that we were doing bad things..."

No Im sorry but people CHOOSE to work for this airline and I have no sympathy if they lose thier jobs and struggle. Companies like MESA deserve it, not companies like ALOHA. People that get a job working for an airline like this enable it to continue to do what it does.

No airline is perfect but I cannot think of another one with such a total disregard for ethics.

N2 was an 'undercutter' too...apparently it's ok for him to judge since now he's been born again.:rolleyes:

Well, apparently you are more than just "Bored with life," I think you have hostility issues. Yes, what happened to Aloha is tragic and Mesa's Mgmnt played a huge part in their demise but to call for Mesa's employee’s blood is uncalled for. Not one pilot or dispatcher could stop Orenstein from doing what he did and is going to do. Yes they could have refused but why would they. Did they have firsthand knowledge of Orenstein’s dirty tactics and did those pilots go out there with the intentions of destroying other pilots/families lives? No, they went just as XJT pilots moved over to their branded flying (Yes don’t be an idiot; I know the differences between the two Mgmnt teams). Mesa’s pilots mean no ill will, only their leader did and not one of them knew of this intent except him and his counter parts.

People look for the best in everything; from companies to relationships, we all hope that time will change them for the better. Unfortunately we more often than not lose when we play with fire.

I think you need to relax and understand that it's not the employees, its Orenstein. If you want blood then call for his but not Mesa's employees.

I drank too much coffee this morning and may have been a little hostile. Or have anger managment issues. Who knows... HAHAHA

But IMHO Mesa's buisness ethics are VERY VERY VERY WELL known. If you choose to go to a company knowing this you should be prepared for the consequences. If you don't know about it, then it is still your fault for not doing your research prior to going to a company.

Part 135 cargo, I guess...other than that, I don't know. This is exactly the point I was trying to make. I find it a bit messed up to take the stance that N2 does about Mesa "undercutting the industry" if one is working for a regional flying mainline routes anyway (which is nearly all of them).

I don't have any disrespect for MAG pilots at all...I just don't want to work there.

Let's get the mods to create a "Mesa is Terrible" section of the forums (just like major/regional/cargo), that way, N2, NWA757, and Boredwlife can live there and talk about Mesa until they're blue in the face.

I know im explaining the same thing on 2 diffrent threads. I Love everyone!!! :D Just a friendly debate.

Yes, I agree that Orenstein has no ethics.

BTW, even if you don't go to a company like Mesa you should prepare for a fall from grace. It happens every year to the good and the bad.

Yes all pilots and all professionals should research the past, present and future (goals) of every company they get in bed with. If your company goes down and you knew that they were headed down the crapper or in the crapper then yes, you don't deserve it but you chose to take the risk so in a way your situation is your fault.

None the less I wish it on no one.

Wrong...the pilot group themselves.

Granted, yes we have an atrocious group of upper-level management, but the pilot group has such a tremendous lack of respect for itself...making it nearly impossible for a rock-solid, stand-up-for-itself sort of a union to develop. It is this deep sense of low-morale that is the true root of our lack of ability to fight.

We do not show up to work and think everything is peachy keen with the way we are treated and how the operation runs. True, there are rookie FO's out there that are uneducated about the fundamentals/economics of the industry...they are at EVERY carrier; not just Mesa. Yes, we have a tendancy to pick up some pilots that are just UNABLE to get jobs at the other carriers for various reasons, the majority of new FO's are just as green and uneducated about the industry as the new hires at XJT, SkyWest, Republic...and the list goes on. We at Mesa just have and unusually difficult job of showing new-hires that these conditions are not what it's all about. We have to educate them about the cultures at other carriers and what we DON'T have at Mesa. This is a daunting task that is easier said then done.

The most common conversation in any Mesa flight deck is about the problems which we face and what needs to be done to fix them; however, respect for one's self, career, and work enviroment is what really needs to be preached. These qualities are prominent amongst the pilots leading solid MEC's. You may ask: "Well, why haven't these people stepped forward at Mesa to lead the union?" Good leaders have become statistics of vicious attrtion at our company; therefore, the union leadership turns over on a fairly regular basis and we are back at square-one. The attitude has to change: Don't try and burn it down, fight to make it better place to work and have a career. That's a key dfiference between Mesa and other regional airlines: You can make a life-long career at other regional airlines if you choose to do so. I'm not saying we don't any pilots at Mesa who have chosen to do so, but these are the guy/gals that are key to changing the company...people who are here for the rest of their aviation careers who have the respect for themselves, career, and family and want to make Mesa a better place to work (for long term)

Until we get union leadership that is constructive and understands the importance of EDUCATION...nothing will change. If we build on those two very important qualities...unity will increase and the level of agressiveness will pick up dramatically. With all this comes standing up to management and BALLS.

Wishing and publicly rooting for a company to put its pilots on the streets and going out of business is absolutely rediculous. We should all have each other's backs in our fights versus management and should be preaching unity amongst each other and figuring out solutions to the current issues we ALL face.

The mentality on this forum is sometimes very disturbing ..."my regional is better than yours" and "this company deserves to go out of business" and "that pilot group sucks." If this type of attitude continues, the future of the regional segment of the airline industry may not be so bright.

Nicely said.

DsrtAV8R, I respect all pilots (ok maybe no GoJetr's) and I've defended Mesa pilots countless times. No I don't defend their decisions or their company but I will never deny the jump to any Mesa pilot and I will always allow them into the actual, I'll also buy the first round on an overnight.

[quote=N2rotation;354301]Everyone at Mesa is willing to do other RJ pilot's job for less. UNDERCUTTING.

And how much are you getting paid to fly that ERJ???

8000, 9000, 10000 dollars a month?

YOU are Lowering the bar by taking that regional job!!!!!!!!!

POT........MEET KETTLE

I have a bottle of bubbly ready for this day...

It is funny how everyone assumes you fly an RJ if you work for Mesa. I've only flown turboprops over the course of my career @ MAG, never had the desire to fly one of those RJ's. Mesa Airlines was the launch customer for the Dash 8 Q-200 for our mountain flying, so we have quite a bit more turboprop in our blood than many of the regionals out there today.

PROP's ROCK!

Not funny, but nearly the truth! If SkyWest flew the Brasilia's nearly exclusively, ya'll would assume that I flew one too.

Chances are you DO fly an RJ if you're a MAG pilot...same as most Regionals out there today.

Ok from what I gather this carrier is basically an entry level type of carrier for pilots who need to build time ? yes or no ?
So when an individual goes to said carrier or carriers they have very little knowledge on how they operate ?yes or no?
I have a solution to this and it goes like this ,since some of these carriers are not so good then how about you guys that are at a good carrier putting in a good word for the guys who are trying to get their foot in the door so to speak.
When I started flying a regional was just props nothing more and nothing less and now it has included jets which back in the day most of us would have never imagined happening .
Just realize someone has to start some where and it may be where some of you have issues .
But in the end we are all one thing --PILOTS !


There are old pilots and bold pilots ,but there are no old bold pilots!

Mesa Guarantee: 70 hours
Eagle Guarantee: 72 hours

Mesa Bid periods per year: 13
Eagle Bid periods per year: 12

Mesa Guarantee per year: 13 X 70 = 910
Eagle Guarantee per year: 12 X 72 = 864

I know Mesa is a shiiiaaattt hole, (all regionals are), but make sure you have all the facts before criticizing too much. I made this mistake and was informed with the info above. Im at Eagle. Kinda interesting.

Are you serious? You’re basing everything upon monthly hourly guarantees? Unless you’re on reserve when does it ever matter and just how much of your regional career is spent on reserve...............what maybe 10%-20% MAX? BTW, I've never sat reserve but for most they will spend 80%-90% of their time flying a line.

*No Block or Better
*50% dead head
*SSHHIITTYY cancellation pay that turns into no pay at all
*No trip or duty rigs
*No daily guarantees
*Mandatory JR manning
*8 days off for reserves
*Majority of pilots only get 10 days off
*$1.25 per Diem
*Don't ask of time off, you won’t get it and if you call in sick you'll have to visit your CP
*Freedom "A"
*And Orenstein at the helm, this is the guy who said "as long as there are resumes on my desk, pilots are overpaid."

BTW, a friend of mine started at Mesa at the same time I started at SKW. He made $21/hr and I made $19/hr. After one year I had been paid well over 1200 hours and he was in the mid 900’s. With the $.40 more in per diem and our flight guarantees I made in the mid $28’s while he didn’t even make it to $22K (TOTAL including per diem). I also averaged 14-15 days off per month while he was lucky to get more than 10. How about them apples? You need to learn that structure of pay is more important than $2-$3 dollars per hour more.

Ps. I am not saying that $28K is great but it’s sad when you can get paid $2/hour less and make over $7K more than you counterpart.


Now compare those numbers to Eagle and tell me if they are still close!

Deep breaths... There ya go. Firstly, im not "basing everything upon monthly hourly guarantees?". I simply posted an interesting piece of information that I recently learned. Obviously im not saying that Mesa on the whole is better than Eagle, or I would be flying there and not here.

Take another sip/hit... relax... goood.. Secondly, Guarantee is a very important issue if you have very low time lines (like we have), or if you bid CDOs or if you are on reserve/choose to bid reserve.

Turn on some Enya, meditate... Thirdly, we have terrible dead head pay, no duty rig/trip rig, and no daily guarantee. BTW, There is no such thing as "Mandatory JR manning".... especially if you have a habit of taking a nice sip of cold beer just at crew scheduling calls.

My original post wasnt a campaign for guys to go to Mesa. Simply some interesting information. One of my criticisms towards them was always their low guarantee, until I was corrected one day.

Everyone has monthly guarantees that are somewhat close to each other, so they are not that important when it comes to the bigger picture. Also not everyone gets paid for CDO's they way you guys do. For instance, can you work 13 CDO's with just over 40 hours of block and get paid in the 85 ish hours range with a 75 hour monthly guarantee?

Next, there is such a thing as Mandatory JR manning, just ask any MAG employee and BTW, what you are proposing could and would cost you your job, especially if you are a reserve pilot (excluding days off). Also MAG is notorious for meeting their pilots and FA’s at the a/c in order to JR man them and they even go as far as to place it into the remarks section of their releases.

Last, your arguments are weak, you have yet to show any numbers but I’ll help you out. You guys make more in your intro years and your per diem is over 42 cents more.

Your numbers:
Eagle Guarantee of 864 X 24 = $20,736 then add your $1.70 per Diem to it.

Mesa Guarantee of 910 X 21 (RJ) = $20,020 then add their $1.28 per Diem

Mesa Guarantee of 910 X 19 (Props) = $17,290 then add their $1.28 per Diem

Your RJ guys still make more, thousands more in the end!

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airli...can_eagle.html
http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airli...-lcc/mesa.html