Ultimately what is always left out of this conversation is individuality. People on this forum love to generalize; 250hr pilot = terrible, 1,000hr CFI = greatness beyond all knowing. :rolleyes:

The fact is everyone is different. Some 3,500hr CFI's are, in fact, much better all around pilots than a 250hr pilot mill graduate, there is also a good number, however, that are not.

Being a pilot employs a myriad of skills (stick & rudder, judgment making, CRM, people skills, mathematics, etc.) and most pilots are not masters of all the skills involved. Some may be extremely strong in regards to one skill, and extremely weak in regards to another.

In my opinion, a great pilot is one that realizes he is not perfect and continually strives to better himself and increase his knowledge and skills. Great pilots are not just limited to the ranks of 1,000hr CFI's.

I agree with you on the stick and rudder aspect. My point however, is that there is more involved in flying a jet than stick and rudder skills. Systems knowledge, FMS/FMC knowledge and aircraft specific knowledge all come into play. Is someone that may lack in the stick and rudder department but has beyond average systems and FMC knowledge a worse pilot than the opposite?

"Most RJ pilots maintain a crab until just before touchdown as it requires less aileron and rudder input and is more comfortable on the passengers"

I use the same technique in a 767 as a 172. Crab until the flare, then nose straight with rudder and wing down into the wind. I think crosswind landings are a perfect example where light aircraft techniques carry over to flying jets. You can talk about bank angles as a limiting factor but I've never seen that play into the jets I've landed in a crosswind.

What is the maximum crab on touch down the gear can handle on 767 or 757? I've see video of planes landing all crabbed as the tires hit tarmack.

Nearly everyone can be taught stick and rudder skills... some are better than others. Decision making, judgment, confidence and alot of other intangibles make AVIATORS. Pilots are a dime a dozen, AVIATORS are a much smaller subset. I knew alot of fine PILOTS who just didnt cut it in UPT, because their judgment or lack there of was not up to par. And before somebody goes and has a flame for me..... I am of the belief that GOOD and GREAT aviators come from all backgrounds. Being from a military background is no assurance of anything and neither is any other background. Ultimately everyone must stand on their own ability. I have known great sticks from every aspect of aviation... as well as crappy ones. Great instructors and LOUSY ones... good check airman... and terrible ones. In the end.. I guess I would choose someone with average skills and GREAT judgment over great skills and lousy judgment, but thats just me.

HercDriver, you're right! What good are stick and rudder skills with no judgment?? You need a good balance of both...and I also think you are right about Aviators - there are very few in the skies out there, and they are what we should all strive to be...

Did you ever fly the DC8? I think that has a bank angle limit of about 8 degrees on landing...otherwise you strike a pod.

There's no question that each individuals insights, experiences and backgrounds vary. Along with each individuals rate and ability to learn essential concepts and skills; such as, stick and rudder skills and airmanship. In general, however, I do think that generation Y appears to be better positioned to learn new glass cockpit technology and at a much faster rate than previous generation X'ers, and prior. Though, in the areas of decision making/judgment and emotional maturity I do not think they have an advantage over previous generations. No doubt, the debate for and against whether a low time pilot should/should not be getting on the 121 band wagon before the magic 1000 hours or 1500 hrs as a CFI, or whatever, will continue on for as long as the state of the industry remains the way it is. IMHO, I think the success of a low time pilot in a 121 environment is highly dependent on the individual; their aptitude, attitude, previous experience/education; and the quality of the airline training that they receive. I agree that flight instructing can be a beneficial experience; but, even then only to a certain point and it’s not for everyone long term.

If a given individual is capable of making it through the airline hiring process and 121 training and has the right attitude and understands that they have much to learn from the guy/gal in the left seat, then why should they not go for it?

The CRJ-200 is limited quite a bit as well...in a 25kt x-wind, I came in just a few feet upwind of CL, crabbed until flare rotation, and cranked in just as much aileron as I dared (a hair over 5 degrees - I believe it's a wing-strike at just under 10 degrees), and I was shocked when the plane still wouldn't maintain CL - drifted a good 5 feet downwind before touching down...It's a funny feeling when you've got yourself all out there and cross-controlled, and there is nothing more that you can do but wait!

...That is what every professional CFI does every day.

A raw graduate of allatp's, delta connection, MAPD etc. increases their knowledge and skills because he is required to. A CFI held their hand the entire way. Now a Captain gets to.

One should do flying outside of being a student following a syllabus before moving on to an airline. CFI or not.

No, I would much rather coach a stick and rudder pilot how to push buttons than to coach button pusher's stick and rudder skills.

Situational awareness, is what separates the good pilots from the bad pilots more than any other trait.
Situational awareness is something that comes with experience.

Patience TurboFan. You'll get to be a CFI occasionally when you make captain... unfortunately, the occasional weak "student" will be learning with 70 people in the back, and it'll be your first real experience making decisions as PIC too.

Man you sure are putting this chick through the ringer. What is your source for all of this information? Please post it.

LoL Love the post man...and since the very basic aspect of our jobs is to fly the airplane, I would have to agree that good stick and rudder skills are the best foundation...After all, if and when the automation goes kaput, can you fly an approach to mins with no A/P, FD, GPS, FMS, etc...?

:rolleyes: Please... Anybody that can't take a vector to final and intercept a LOC/GS raw data has no right to be flying IFR period. I highly, highly doubt that there are many if any regional pilots out there that could not fly raw data. You guys act like many of us F/O's would be completely lost if the FMS sh** out. I don't know what your sims were like, but I know much of my sim time was flying raw data.

If you have flown with an F/O that can't hand fly an ILS raw data, report him to your flight standards department, but I doubt you ever have.

Google... its a wonderful thing.

It's translated...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...539373,00.html

http://www.thehamburgexpress.com/content/view/646/61/

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...different.html

now use google to find the reported wind at the time and crosswind limitation on an A320.
www.google.com

Facts: the wind exceeded limitations. Other, more favorable, runway was available, even offered and later used. Other aircraft attempted and went around without incident. Other aircraft refused to depart and takeoff on that very runway.

Oops, my mistake, thought it was your company on earlier post---Da Boot.

I read all of your links and didn't find one that said that the F/O was a 300 "wonder" :confused:. All I could find is that she was 24 years old. Until you can substantiate that she did in fact have 300 hours, this conversation is not about low time pilots, it is about poor decision making skills. The captain is just as responsible if not more so than the F/O in this incident as he is the final authority as to the saftey of the flight.

I'm still looking... care to help research? The website I got that information from has since been refreshed with Germany's latest news. (www.bild.de)

Also, consider Lufthansa hires and trains many of it's pilots from scratch. I'll go ahead and search for a link for ya. Just sit there while someone else does the learning for ya.

...I sure can tell you never were a CFI, it really shows.

www.google.com

Hear is the article. I'm working on translated version of the website.

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermisc...o=3926766.html

this one discusses training

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermisc...o=3926766.html

Here is a horrible translation from an on-line translator: (my last german class was 10 years ago, so the online program does a better job)

"How do I become a pilot?

In Lufthansa there lasts the education 2,5 years. Only who passes the hard admission test (math, physics, orientation ability), may in the theory education in the occupational airman.

t lasts a year. Only then the pupils may in airplanes: First in einmotorige propeller machines, followed by simulator training. Before it goes in big scheduled planes of Boeing and airbus, it is further coached on small business jets. The minimum age for pilots lies with 21 years. The flight education costs more than 130,000 euros. During her career Lufthansa pilots of it must pay back about 41,000 euros."

If I read it right, 2.5 years of training minimum age of 21 fly for Lufthansa...

Do the math, Lufthansa pays for 0 to hero training, she is only 24. There was another link, can't find it now, that said she had been flying for Lufthansa for just about a year. Logic says: she didn't have much more than a 1,000 TT...

sorry bro, decision making skills in this situation dont come from experience... they come from common sense.

True on the CA's part.

She had been nothing but a student and brand new FO. Always being told what to do and how to do it from an experienced flight instructor and later closely monitored by a very experienced CA (relatively). She probably never voiced her concern for the upcoming situation. She obviously, didn't try a go around. The CA finally acted... way too late.

She rarely has had to make a decision for herself as PIC, much less question a "mentor's" decision. Partly due to her lack of experience, she was quietly along for the ride.

Not true, at least at all ERAU extended campuses there are no hour requirements.

Let someone else do the learning for me? Now you're really showing your true colors. All I've asked you to do is provide factual evidence that this female pilot was, and I quote "a whopping 300hrsTT" pilot as you claimed earlier. Even with the most recent links you've posted (all in German I might add) there is still no written statement that says she was a 300TT pilot. Btw, I agree, Google is great, especially the translation feature which I used to read the articles that were in German. Still waiting for this mysterious article that will make you honest. Until then, I think you're lying to everyone in a failed attempt to make your point.

What's that supposed to mean? Because I don't put down my fellow pilots and make up fake accusations it's obvious I was never a CFI. Please... You give CFI's a bad name.

This statement is so absurd it hardly warrants a response. You sure do know a lot about this girl for someone that read a few articles on the internet one evening. You can't substantiate one thing you said here. It is all blatant and erroneous speculation.

For someone not involved in the incident, you seem overly sensitive. Low hour RJ FO hire? His comments may or may not be true but you're not doing yourself any favors with your replies.

Turbofan,

Your gonna wishyou had done some CFI'n when you become a CA and get the 330 hour FO who had 80 hours of IOE (they're out there and in great numbers). Just because you're a 300 hour no-flaw prodigy doesn't mean you won't have to deal with those who posses lesser skills than yourself.

It's a little different when you gotta coach or monitor the weak FO who has strapped on way too much aircraft way too early. Especially, when you get paired up with one of them as a brand-new CA.

Which one will you be? The captain who finger-fncks everything, and constantly corrects them, or the annoyed captain who will only let them fly legs to the base airport?

first of all... its ridiculous for us even to sit here and discuss this 300 nonsense... while notta large fan for personal reasons dating back decades... i can assure you the powers that be at lufthansa dont put 300 hour pilots into A320's... thats what those little white shiny jets we call crj's are for.

low-time/high-time is really not the issue at hand my brother but rather common sense. and turbofan much like myself is waiting for some to be used with just a trickle of fact to back up these statements. most around here have an ichy ichy trigger finger and need a calibration before they jump on fellow pilots they know little to nothing about.

Slice, you know my M.O. mang. You read and responded to my little intro to APC. You told me to pi** off if I remember correctly.

Yes, I am a graduate of one of those "pilot mills" everyone speaks so highly of. I'm not ashamed to say it. I also don't think I am gods gift to flying by any means. I do, however, get sick of people making rash and unwarranted statements which aren't even true, for the sole purpose of bashing guys like me.

I embrace the fact that I have a lot to learn and look forward to doing so throughout my career. I'm just sick of people playing the CFI card in an attempt to belittle what myself, and many others, have accomplished.

Just as parents say when their 16 y/o gets their drivers license... I'm cruising around FL360 with all ya'll. Better watch out! :eek:

I'm not afraid, I fly mostly at night.:D

EDDH 011220Z 29028G48KT 9000 -SHRA FEW011 BKN014 07/05 Q0984 TEMPO 29035G55KT 4000 SHRA BKN008

It was 60 degrees to rwy23 gusting up to 48 kts.

A320 limitation is: 33 Gusts 38

ref: http://www.nifa.us/judgesmanual/apendixC.pdf

X-wind component is 42

My math skills are quite limited however, 42 is not the product of 38 times 3... let alone 4.

It is doubtful that a self-preservation, will-to-live mindset would've entered the most dim of minds.

We agree! Her experience must be considered among least the smallest of factors in their decision making process.

I never said that "had she been a cfi along with the CA" this would've never happened.

I agree with you 100 percent that common sense was lacking and was primary factor in the error to even try that rwy.

I am just saying that her low-time and having never been a real PIC prior to becoming an SIC must be considered among at least the smallest factor in the reason behind her not speaking up and.. gasp... second guess THE CAPTAIN!?!?

Due to her most memorable EXPERIENCE so far in her short aviation career do you think that she will, when faced with the same set of circumstances, (even during focus training in the sim)

A) Attempt it again?
B) Attempt it again and go around earlier?
C) Or speak up and request the other runway to begin with?

I know you and turbofan are unwilling to accept the concept that experience counts for something, and lack of it can not count against anything. So, be very careful in selecting B, or C cause in doing so you will admit that experience counts for something. May God help you.

This is quite an extreme thread drift.

Say its not true...
 

What?:eek: When did this happen?:confused: I can guarantee you I had a 1000hr requirement. If they have removed this then they have done nothing but cheapen the degree. I shall contact the dean immediately upon the dawn.:mad:

If you had 1000 PIC you got up to 36 credits depending on ratings held. I think you could still get the degree without the time but had to take more classes.

give me no credit you do... young jedi. i'll be the first to tell you that experince does count for something... for the matter in which we spar pertains to the type of experience. while some will debate that experience equals experience equals experience, i will throw caution to the wind my friend... i strongly believe my hours in the bombardier beast put me in a better decision making position than banner towing tony. but...i am merely a servant... a vessel in which to carry the voice of those who cannot speak, a friend of the low-time club for men... and i must admit... im not only the president, i'm also a client.

So it seems..
 

I completed mine a million years ago, before fancy computers and stuff. We had things called books.:D Back then its was a requirement...oh well.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...539373,00.html

http://www.thehamburgexpress.com/content/view/646/61/

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermisc...o=3926766.html

Finally found it again! has some good pictures of her too.

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermisc...o=3940818.html

roughly translated by a neutral third party: http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr

It kinda sounds like Borat :)

Hamburg - during the approach of gale it sat to tax - Maxi J. (24), the beautiful CO female pilot of the Lufthansa flight LH 044. A gust of wind had gotten the flier in such a way that the left bearing area scratched over the runway. In last second flight captain of olive A had. (39) the machine waved off, so 137 humans saved (PICTURE reported). The beautiful female pilot, who sat to tax of the gale flier - she guards a sad secret.

Maxi originates from good house, drives gladly sport, was active as Cheerleaderin, friends was always important to it. In the year 2003 it made its Abitur, visited thereafter the national foreign language school in Hamburg. It existed the bang-hard selective procedure of Lufthansa a little later, completed starting from 2005 the training as the female pilot. THERE JULIA KNOWING LEARNED IT. It was one of their companions in crew "340. nff" (new generation pilot training course). They learned together, became friends. But the fate should always separate it...

On 1 February 2006 Julia started in the Lufthansa training centre in Phoenix (the USA) to a practice flight. It was their third solo flight. But its "Beechcraft Bonanza" fell over the desert - a cause inexplicably! The death of Julia shocked Maxi. Together with their comrades it wrote in a Kondolenzbuch: "Julia, you will always remain in our hearts! You will be on each flight with us!"

More miscellaneous items Despite the shock Maxi created its pilot license in February 2007. Well one year later came it then to the difficult approach of gale on the airport Hamburg. The first landing had Maxi alone denied, when it came to the nearly Crash, intervened their colleague. Lufthansa speaker Michael Lamberty: for "a new situation developed ways of the strong gust of wind, it within fractions of a second a role change gave. It counts the team achievement." Lufthansa places itself before the courageous female pilot. Nevertheless the Federal Agency for flight accident investigation examines the flight writers of the LH 044, above all the discussions in the cockpit. Maxi still is in the service. And that is also the most important for it. Because on the question, which prefers airplane her, Maxi said once: "no matter, main thing fly..."

She started the 0 to hero program in AZ in Feb '06, graduated in Feb '07, incident occured Mar '08.

She didn't have that much flight time. Especially for an A320...

A link to her friend's accident, it's rather interesting, very unfortunate...

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...06FA099&rpt=fa