Overall Job Outlook
 

With so many airlines going out of business in the last few weeks it seems like those of us who are still looking for jobs are going to be SOL for a little while. I mean correct me if I'm wrong here but with at 190 pilots at skyway, 112 at sky bus, 902 at ATA and 308 at aloha that makes for 1512 extremely qualified pilots looking for jobs.... hmm not good. Makes me kind of glad that I got ahead of the game and have a good job offer in my pocket.

So I want to get your opinion on this as many of you are much wiser than I. How is this all affecting the immediate job market? what about a few months down the road? A year? Yes, I realize there is many other factors, but I would think that this is going to be a big difference...

I would personally suggest going freight, if you really want to fly for a 121 regional apply once the industry settles down.

Something like FLX or something, you can make over $40k/yr, it's not bad all things considering. Airnet just got sold to a private owner, that could be a little rocky, but still better than any regional IMO.

It seems the regionals have always been up and down and are going to continue down that road for a while. If you get the oppertunity to get in as people are getting out it could be a good gig for a while, but if you make it in just before the freeze than your going to ride the bubble and be at the bottom of that senority list and everyone knows who gets furlowed first.

I agree that freight would be the way to go if you want to stay out of the part 91 end of things. But alot of folks already know this and the freight slots are filling up fast.

Where ever you may go make sure that you will be able to stomach it for a while, just incase the industry closes the doors to the quick out that we all seem to plan on.

AirNow and Ameriflight are hiring captains in the mid $40k range.. Those of you 300 hr wonders with shiny jet syndrome may have do what pilots for decades have been doing.. earn your seat with some experience as an instructor. The jobs will still be there though, but they will be with bottom feeder companies like Mesa. Personally, I'd rather fly banners down the beach all summer. The military is a great experience as well. It's not for everyone.. but i wouldn't trade that experience for any seat with any airline out there. Something you just won't understand unless you've been there.

Excellent advice. Thank you. And this is exactly why I didn't go to places like Mesa and others when all my friends did... I think people often forget that while you are in fact trying to work your way up the chain, your suppoused to have fun doing it.

Ok... thanks for the lecture, but your missing my question all together here. It doesn't matter if you have 300 hours or 3000 as an instructor, regionals will go with prior 121 experience before going with newbies... so if the 1500 odd pilots from the discontinued airlines seek these jobs they will surely get them prior to CFI's.

"you're supposed"

Make sure you finish that degree too:D. I kid I kid.

and im sure the majority of your FO's wish you woulda gone that route.

The VSJ companies are another option that might fit the bill. It is jet PIC, and probably builds time faster than normal corporate flying.

Then there is the option to head overseas. You might be able to get into something other than an RJ.

If you are trying to get in with a regional why would you care about pilots from ATA, skybus, etc? Majority of these guys, if not all of them, are not going to be competing for the same jobs you are looking at. Highly unlikely that these pilots would drop back down to regional $1,200 a month pay.

Outlook
 

Sometimes this industry blows me away ... you're right ... Aloha, ATA, Champion, SkyBus, etc., etc., won't make any difference with the regionals. The regionals are looking for cheap meat, qualifications, experience, ability don't matter a bit ... it the meat makes it through training/checking, that's all that matters and training/checking are the MINIMUM standards.

The ATA/Aloha/Chapmion/Skybus guys 'n gals are waaaaaaay over qualified or interested in that market, add Frontier, Sun Country, Trade Winds and more.

I'm very, VERY, glad I'm not in that mess. It's a long term scary thing.

As for outlook, I'd bet that the downturn in the economic system, the rise in fuel price and general stagnation will bring new pilot hiring back closer to it's past history. But I'm only a 30 year observer/industry participant.

TranMach

SJS (Shiny Jet Syndrome)

That is a serious syndrome, I hear somewhere that roughly 100% of pilots with career aspirations are afflicted with this syndrome. Very sad stuff.;)

I wouldn't count out some of the Aloha/ATA/Skybus/et al pilots finding their way back down to the regionals. With very few regionals even hiring right now, and almost none of the majors, these pilots may not have another choice should they decide to stay in the airline business.

We have a handful of ex-Midway guys left here, not to mention the AA, DL, NW, and US furloughees (most of which have gone back) that sought refuge with a regional during their furlough period. There are even a few guys that found themselves jobless when PanAm ceased operations, and they still work here.

A wave of airline shutdowns affects everyone in the industry, no matter what level you are on. A pool of surplus, qualified will have an impact all the way down to the CFI level. More pilots + less jobs = higher minimums, longer upgrades, slow movement, etc. It doesn't really matter where the unfortunate pilots find other jobs (and I hope they do find other work), because those are just more jobs that the rest of us can't move into for the short term.

You are very correct.....I am one of those who just lost my job at Aloha. I was relatively new there at Aloha and with no other majors hiring my only choice is to turn to the regionals.

There is nothing wrong with having career aspirations, most people don't want to fly a Tprop for their career. It's those that want everything right away without working for anything that is the problem.

I know, just kidding...why is it so taboo for someone with say 300 hours to get on flying a Tprop if the opportunity arises? I'm speaking in terms of low-hour turboprop fo's, because most pilots flying for Skybus, Aloha, etc. probably could cook up an unemployment check that would compete with these fo's pay, yet these low-hour fo's are still frowned upon for getting the job with such low hours. I fullly appreciate instructing and the experience, but I guess what I'm saying is...If it is there, then why not try?....one man's trash is another man's treasure....everyone seems to complain about these jobs, but don't want to give them to people who are willing to take them.

Just my 2 cents.....

Also, not to use the cheap arguement, but think back to when you were 22-23. What if you had a real opportunity. Would you have said, nah, I think it would be wise to build some more time in a 152? Things change, and I understand what more there is to being a professional pilot, but at this point in these people's (for lack of a better word) "career" is seems like a wise choice. If it doesn't happen, then great, build some more time and head back towards it, but if it's here and now, it's worth a shot.

It's not taboo anymore. It's normal. Many of these 300 hour guys have a great head on their shoulders and worked very hard to get into an airline so quickly. Unfortunately, there are enough that are way too cocky and can't hold their own; those are the guys that make the rest look bad.

I was one of those 300 hour wonders over 2 years ago when I was hired. Training was a breeze because of an "RJ transition course" that I took, or whatever you want to call it, but it wasn't enough for the real world. It took an easy 3 months on the line before I was worth a crap as an FO. This was at a time when most regionals were looking for 1000/100 for new hires, so most were envious of how quickly I scored that "real flying job." Many of those who bash the 300 hour wonders would probably have grabbed the opportunity had it presented itself, although they won't admit it :)

I tell this story, however, because the 300 hour bashers are 100% correct in their skepticism. I would kill to go back in time and get 1000 hours CFIing, or flying night cargo ops somewhere in a baron. That experience is invaluable and I wish I had not missed out on it. But, like the majority of those in my shoes would have done, I caved into SJS and took that RJ job. Fortunately for my counterparts, they didn't get that opportunity. They were learning and gaining experience by leaps and bounds while I was holding tightly to the tailcone of a jet, acting as deadweight for a few months in the right seat.

While I hate to admit that I was one of those 300 hour no goods, I do so to caution the up and coming guys out there. Don't sell out early if you can help it!

dacline: please feel free to PM me if you plan to move to a regional. You can get lots of great information on any of the regionals from this forum, and most of us on here are more than willing to reply to a PM and answer any specific questions about our companies and help you out with employment. Good luck!

Thank you...I can use all the help I can get. Now for a stupid question....how do I PM other users? I thought I could just click on your name but there was nothing there allowing me to PM. BTW...I am brand new to this forum so I plead ignorance.

"I tell this story, however, because the 300 hour bashers are 100% correct in their skepticism."

Why, thanks. I feel somewhat....vindicated....

Haha I didn't mean it in a bad way. I guess I could have worded that better. Just agreeing that 300 hour RJ FO's need more experience. Sorry if I offended :o

You have to make 25 posts before you can PM someone...
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/faq.php

Twenty five posts dude...get a few more and you'll have the PM option.

EDITED: somebody beat me to it!

But I just want to fly Turboprops.....:D

"Haha I didn't mean it in a bad way. I guess I could have worded that better"

Naw, man. You worded it perfect. Maybe I worded it wrong.

dacline, I'd PM you but...ya know. :)

Anyway, why not try getting on with HAL?

Hey dacline...I didn't realize you couldn't PM yet. I just got there myself today. Feel free to post whatever questions you have about regional companies in these threads. There are people from every regional on these forums and most will be willing to go out of their way to give you a hand.

And I do appreciate all the help. I am pretty low time so I need to go back to the regionals for awhile. I won't get into the specifics but I was very fortunate to have a job at Aloha, albeit for just a short time.

I'm really hoping to get on with SkyWest so any info on this airline would be very helpful (junior bases, reserve time, etc.) I have an interview on April 11 and am hoping to get picked for the Bro...hopefully they will feel sorry for me...yea right LOL!

If I remember right, when Skyway announced their closer, Skywest was fairly able to accomadate thier needs.

I am sure in the morning when the skywest folks start getting up and moving around agian they will be able to tell you more.

I thought I heard that skywest interviewed all that wanted to from skyway, and if hired, put them all in MKE

I cannot say the would extend the same thought to your or not.
But you already have the interview that is the step in the right direction.

Sorry to about the loss of your airline. I hope you are keeping your head up.

Reeves

I don't think you'll have a problem - modesty will take you a long way in the interview regarding how you've gotten where you are - I'm sure they were dying to get you in the door for an interview. I'm assuming you do not have 1000 TPIC as of yet?

Anyway - best of luck! And I'm terribly sorry about Aloha...tough break man.

Thanks man...I appreciate the kind words. You're right, I do not have over 1000 TPIC. Close, but not quite.

As a side note--I'm sick of hearing everyone in the media trying to tie up all of these companies going out of business as some sort of "alarming" trend in the airline industry...typical BS media hype.

Has anyone noted the job postings and aircraft orders announced by Hawaiian Airlines?

And every Skyway pilot I know already had a new job lined up a long time ago...they've known for almost 5 months now that they were going outta business.

I feel bad for the guys at ATA and Champion, but you also have to understand those guys (many of whom are older) are not necessarily going to show up on the doorstep of your local regional op and try to take your job. And the majors aren't necessarily going to hire those guys either.

Another aspect of 300 hour wonders I've noticed is this--it's BS for us guys who busted our rear-ends in the real world, once we get to groundschool and Jet U guys already learned the profiles and callouts verbatim. There were at least 3 guys in my class that hadn't flown an actual aircraft in 1.5-2 years...scary and BS. And my sim partner and I discussed this--those Jet U guys are COCKY! I don't give a darned if you want to spend 26K to get the same job I got for free, but don't come up to me with 300 hours and brag about how easy training is....because you spent 26K on it!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmmm, not for sure, but last i saw, ATP was near 75k for the complete package... So I wanna know where this Jet U is lol.

But seriously everything you were talking about, Callouts, memory Items, and profiles are available on the internet. I would suggest reading up before school starts. I dont know much about JET U, but Cocky pilots usually kill someone.

But I fail to see how them knowing their **** before hand is BS, that is called being prepared.

Now for guys that havent flown in 1.5-2 years, now that is a tad bit scarey, but nothing 500.00 and a C152 wont solve.

Oh and how much did you spend on your flight training. I really dont wanna know, I jsut want you to think about that. Because how much they spent on getting the job, is probably about the same as what you have spent in your training as well... So in the end you also paid for the job.

PS. Im not defending anyone, nor am I attacking you... Just making a few observations.

Ground School and training is easy, dealing with cocky kids that don't know squat about professionalism is not...

I with you agree; but, still dark the future looks. (Yoda)

(I couldn't resist that one, I just watched a rerun of Star Wars) :D

Here's another one of your quotes..

" better that experience be gained sitting next to a high time captain rather than infront of a banner pinging down the beachfront. special 141 school "

or

"I'm a west coast guy and would love to fly at skywest but its an hours issue... i'm still quite a bit short of their hard mins and it seems like they have no intention of changing them :-(
well at this point i'd fly just about anything... i'm 27 now so i dont imagine i'd have enough senority in my class to bid anything but the 200."

tzadik,

Most of my FOs are in their 30s and 40s with several thousands of hours.. and most of them put their time in on jobs like.. flying banners :) Most of them left Captain jobs with the regionals while you were in high school.

I didn't fly banners.. but sure wish I had for a summer.. what a blast.

I guess if you think sitting next to some guy 3 years younger than you reading checklists for him and getting his flaps is better than learning stick and rudder skills and making command decisions in a high stress enviroment. Just my $.02, but I don't think you understand what it takes to command an aircraft. Not saying you can't learn from a good captain.. but bring some of your own experience to the table as well so he has something to work with.
You probably should be sitting there as a FO for a long time just learning the big picture. Leave the command stuff to the guys that went out and proved they could do at an early stage of their career.. like banner pilots, traffic watch, jump pilots, small cargo, etc.. etc..

Not saying some 300 hr Jet U guys aren't good.. they just aren't a known/proven quantity. Most captains you fly with don't want to find out the first time you've seen some icing is your leg with 100 passengers behind you.

Go fly whatever you can for a little while where you are signing for that airplane before you go fly 121 ops.

Honestly now, You're 27 years old with barely enough hours to even apply to most regionals. I don't mean to offend, but go get some experience and stop wasting time lashing out at people who you no idea who they are. :)

Heres my dilemma, I was packing my bags ready to go to my new CFI job when all of the sudden out of the blue I get an interview invitation by Piedmont, now my question is what to do, I am really low on time but I feel this might be the only opportunity in a while to get on with a regional.

Anybody on the inside know what are the chances of hiring continuing after this? If I get hired will I be in one of the last classes?

You know, it is possible to go to conventional University and earn an aviation degree and ratings. Not everyone is a product of Jet U, and many are paying their own way through an actual University. Never understood Jet U's or ATP's personally (a kid that went through my program found out he was eppileptic (sp?) after becoming a CFII,MEI, etc....it's a good thing he had a degree in something that allowed him to go other places) the point is, is that not everyone is a 300 hour idiot...there are quite a few 300 hour semi-idiots.

Great... another 500 hr wonder pilot who's an expert on what it takes to be a captain :rolleyes:

Jet U
 

When the Multi-Crew License comes into being all we will have is guys like the Jet U graduates you described. New hires will hit ground school already trained, arrogant and with next to no actual aircraft experience. They will work for less since they have little invested into their careers.

SkyHigh