I concur with Snoman. I said this on another POST. Every Mainline carrier Pilot group needs to get it's regional affiliates pilots one 1 seniority list. This would be the first step in establishing, for the lack of a better term, a "Minimum Wage". It will be very difficult and complicated because it entails merging seniority lists and hashing out flo-through agreements up as well as back.This will be necessarry to stop the "Race to the Bottom".

Once this is accomplished, managements won't be able to play one group against the other............Mainline Pilots don't want jobs outsourced to Rejionals. Regionals pilots want bigger A/C for bigger pay and quality time building in hopes for the shot at the big boys someday. As long as this continues the race to the bottom will continue................................

One list, one group, one contract...........................

Stand up and be counted
 

You guy's are dreaming. This a political issue, at the highest levels. We have a Republican congress with a Republican president, neither is even shy about there disdain for organised labor. They are willing to use the power of the highest land, courts, laws, threats, to coerce working Americans to not stand up to their employees. Do you think its a coincidence that union membership, nation wide is at an all time low?? Than look at pay and benefits for working Americans. Compared to upper management, you will see a trend that is undeniable, the loss of income (and retirement) of working class Americans while the highest income grow well above the rate of inflation.
Airlines, being one of the few (remaining) industies with heavy union membership, has been in the bulls-eye of our "Republican leadership" for years. National minimum wage (for airline pilots), you gotta be kidding:( The government would step in soo fast to stop that. The legal paper that would fly around Washington would make your head spin. ALPA has some political clout, but not with the party in power. Its ironic too, because I'm guessing most airline pilots vote Republican.:p
You want regional pilots (and majors, CFI's, crop dusters, etc) to earn more or at least, not earn less, than support (the) union on your property. If there isn't one, help organise one and than push for a fair, decent contract that raises the bar. If that isn't possible, leave for the best paying job when the opportunity exists. The same for CFI's, air taxi, fractional, crop dusters, pipeline patrol, what ever. Don't settle for less. If your job is not paying what it should, vote with your feet if you can't convince your boss your worth it.
Than in November, support, write, vote for, the elected leadership that is looking out for your interests. If your congressman is not supporting your right to bargain with your employer than help to give him a new job, just not in Washington.:D

There is one real crack in our industries labor unity which management has finally noticed and utilized to drive a wedge into our wall of unity and fracture it into little pieces.

The crack is the gap between mainline and regional /commuter pilot groups. Why does this gap exist? Why not have scope that starts ALL pilots flying under a company banner with that company's mainline. You start in 19 seat turboprops as ab FO and move up to 777 CA.

Why has this obvious measure not been taken by the unions? Why do we have a two class system? Easy...historically the majority of airline pilots were ex-military. These heavily military folks think it's OK for a 22 year to fly a turboprop for peanuts, but they feel their military brothers leaving the service at age 30 should not have to start at the bottom. So the mainline/commuter gap exists to provide a hole to allow military guys to sneak into that 737 without having to fly any smaller stuff. Not really that unreasonable if you think about it... BUT management found the gap and is pounding it apart with bigger and bigger "regional jets"

JO really is serious about flying narrow bodies, in case you didn't know. And the guy does not have a track record of failure.

Trust me, you dont want the Government to start getting involved in the industry. In Canada the government had its hands in every aspect of the industry. From dedciding airlines futures to SENORITY lists. The canadian government refuses to let Air Canada lower their ticket prices below that of competition. They FORCED air canada to buy Canadian airlines who were heavily in debt, with planes that were falling apart(did not upkeep them as they were suppose to). Not only did they force them to buy them, but they told air canada the pilot senority had to be date of hire! Air Canada pilots lost hundreds of numbers, took 30% paycuts. Air Canada A320 captains lost their captain position to become first officers to baby sit guys just comming off of being 737 first officer from canadian. The government also said that former canadian regional pilots would get to count their REGIONAL senority to. So a guy that only was with canadian for 1 year, but was with canadian regional for 15 years... would get 16 years senority on the new aircanada list.

Believe me, the best thing is to keep the government as far away as possible from the airlines. If the government gets involved to stop undercutting competion, than they just do what they want and dont care about what happens to the company or its employees.

First let me start off by saying that I think pilots are indeed underpaid. I think management is over paid, and whereas I think that upper management should be paid more the gap is a little too large for my liking. Both management and the pilots are being paid because of their large amount of responsibility in their descision making. Management has to make more descisions than a pilot, but a pilot's descision, just like management's, can make or break a company.

Let me add, however, that the race to the bottom can be linked to Southwest's fuel hedges. This, of course, is not the only reason, but I believe it to be a large one. Fuel was actually the largest expense to some airlines in 2005, surpassing labor. Airlines need to find some way to compete with Southwest. If they raise the ticket prices, then they lose the market, so it's easy to see where they will go to try and cut costs. As Southwest begins to lose its hedges, they will either need to accept a shrinking profit margin, or raise their prices, the rest of the market will become more competitive and other airlines will not have as much pressure on cutting costs and be able to pay their pilots more.

When it's heges run ot in 2010, things should start to look better for the rest of the industry.

I also can't help but feel sorry for whoever is on the other end of those hedges. They're completely losing their ass!

With all the Legacy carriers now paying $45-$65 less an hour than Southwest pays on comparable equipment (A319-320, MD80 and 737)
Southwest previously had another advantage in that it doesn't have a retirement plan..........Now 2 of the Big legacies don't either........with unfortunately more to follow suit.

Southwest has already lost much of its competive edge that it once held in terms of Labor costs.

Southwest has never strayed to far from their businees plan..................................A single class, no thrills, Point to point short haul carrier offering a simple fare structure. True they are flying Coast to Coast flights and have increased some 3-4hr segments..........but they have never really strayed from their core markets. WN still offers a good product for their niche...........but with them expanding heavy into the Northeast (i.e. Philly, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Baltimore) who knows........time will tell.


When the Legacies figure out what they want to be.................A full service carrier offering both Domestic and iInternational destinations.(Contiental, Northwest, DAL).....or a Mega Low cost airline......................................... (New USAirways)............The Jury is still out on United............Will their Domestic product become soley a TED style operation offering connections to Full service International? Time will tell..........................

My gut says that as soon as NW an DAL emerge from Bankruptcy (as has recently been done with UAL and USAir)......the playing field will be level (to the detriment of Labor)...............you will soon see the Majors making big profits once again.

You guys live in a vacuum. One national seniority list? Are you saying that no sane man would want to be without a union? The vast majority of the nation has decided that they do not. Do you want to force them to? Which union? ALPA, APA, Teamsters, etc.? What about a free market? The public has voted with their wallets and has decided that they will not pay the fares required to support $300,000/year Captains. So the club should be closed to new members? Shrink the airlines, the capacity, and the pilot group to support higher fares and higher salaries? give me a break.

SWA fuel hedges running out in 2010? You don't think they're buying new contracts that expire in 2011? 2012? Management making too much? ALPA didn't complain in the 1990's they just said, "Gimme some too!"

If I ever met a union pilot that was happy with his job I would die of shock.

Management alert!

Well, you haven't met me, but I am one of those happy with his job.

BTW, the $300k Captains aren't what is wrong with this industry. If the fares were anywhere close to the value they deliver, all of the airlines would be posting quarterly profits. $89 one-way coast-to-coast? Gimme a break! Oh yeah, don't forget the drain the federal government is imposing on the airlines with it's taxes and fees...

I'll second the vote to get the feds out of the business. Airlines aren't "de-regulated" just less regulated. Complete deregulation and less taxes would be better.
Again, the free market lecture. If we raised the fares from $89 to $389 nobody would buy them. And if someone can build a better mousetrap, let them. If they can run a profitable company with $89 fares then let them. That's America.

Well...

I guess the key to this statement is "if". Maybe we should start complaining that every other business in our free market is overcharging for their services/products. The plain fact is that the fares paid don't cover the costs of the operation. Maybe if the feds got out of our pockets then the industry could turn around and (most) everybody would be happy...