What about the guys/gals who held off and didn't get a new house and two new cars? Why should they bear the burden of your buddy's poor decisions?

It would be different if he just found out his kid had some horrible disease, but I hate paying for others' mistakes.

And your point is??????????

I do not see how extending your life and reaching the American Dream is a poor decision maybe to you it is. I am still trying to understand the point about bearing the burden. What did this decision to buy a house or car have to do with us getting downgraded or getting the F_word in a few months.

The only reason I mentioned the reference to new home owner and car owner is some people will have to do what they have to do to survive. To Hell with not picking up open time. Ok, let me change the story. What about that pilot that has to pay $850 dollars in student loans, $350 for rent, $100 to eat each month and upgraded hoping to make ends meet, well guess what he's back to 74 hours a month ($25 per hour) and a crappy contract that does not pays him nothing.

Guys do what you have to do.

And your point again is?????????????????????????????????

New homes, new cars and other material things aren't "doing what they have to do to survive". Sounds like he went on an upgrade spending binge. If they furlough, what do the pilots that get furloughed do to survive? New cars and homes are a little trivial when you don't have a job and can't put any food on the table.

If four pilots pick up four day pairings worth 18 hours each you just cost that furloughed pilot a chance to have a job. When you pick up open time with pilots on the street you're screwing your brothers in arms and helping the company save on the bottom line.

The point is, your other coworkers could end up on the street because your airline is doing what they've done numerous times during their "25 years of aviation excellence". They could have prevented ever downgrade/furlough/exodous they've had in the past 10 years if they had some people that knew what they were doing sitting in those offices in Bridgeton.

You know what I have learnt in my short time in aviation. Everyone pretends like they care about the other guys, but believe me when sheit hits the fan no one care about the other. If my job becomes threaten in any way do you think I will care about helping you save your job or would you take a pay cut so I could have a job at your airline.

Look at the debates and posts we have been reading about Skywest vs Expressjet, pilots attacking pilot because one company is threating the future of the other.

I agree it sucks for most people and how they spent, I know it will suck of 80 more pilots regardless of the number of open time that is left untouched. Have you seen the average block at TSA, even the reserve guys at your airline would not take that line. I am like Ryan Reeve I do all I can to fly the bear minimum, if you look at the company trip trade/drop site my whole month schedule is available if anyone needs to fly more to save their job.

My point basically: We can encourage pilots not to pick up open time. But when it has to do with putting food on the table for their family, paying bills, having medical insurance screw everyone else they will do what they have to do. The guys in Bridgeton do not care and have never cared, so whether you pick up open time or not we are all going to be screwed from the behind.

I understand your thought process pilotpip. I got the upgrade and just got downgraded, but I did not spend money like I had it. Unfortunately, due to helping family/college bills etc, i had to average about 95 hours/month credit to live decently on FO pay. Now i go back to FO, never having gotten a Captains paycheck but having 2 months of minimum FO pay through training, lines are built to no more than 85 hours now, and it's looked badly upon if I pick up open time to survive. I feel for those that will get furloughed and those that are already furloughed, but unfortunately the bill collectors don't care why my payment is not being made. And if I have to pick up open time to make my payments...then so be it. The company should have been more proactive and not hired too many pilots. I don't like helping the company, if i had the option of doing the bare minimum, then I would. But not all of us can afford to do that, even if we didnt go buy a new house and car.

I agree it sucks for most people and how they spent, I know it will suck of 80 more pilots regardless of the number of open time that is left untouched. Have you seen the average block at TSA, even the reserve guys at your airline would not take that line. I am like Ryan Reeve I do all I can to fly the bear minimum, if you look at the company trip trade/drop site my whole month schedule is available if anyone needs to fly more to save their job.

My point basically: We can encourage pilots not to pick up open time. But when it has to do with putting food on the table for their family, paying bills, having medical insurance screw everyone else they will do what they have to do. The guys in Bridgeton do not care and have never cared, so whether you pick up open time or not we are all going to be screwed from the behind.[/QUOTE]

THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS A QUOTE AND NOT MY WORDS

That is the exact same justification that people make for joining alter egos and crossing picket lines. I am not trying to say that not picking up open time will cure all the evils of this industry. If you have to put food on the table and it is such a dire situation, then you friend probably needs to consider a different occupation, regardless of how much he believes he loves flying. If there is so much open time available then it is a staffing issue and there doesnt need to be downgrades and furloughs. By picking up open time from a company that is actively participating in these practices all you are doing is encouraging it and showing them that they can operate on these reduced levels. Bottom line is companies that do this put pilots on the streets.

I agree with your statement and I am not going to defend this point any further. First point, as much as I would do anything to fly a 70 seat airplane I would never join an alter ego airline. If you know me I would be the first on a picket line would never cross one.

Secondly, I never said food on the table was a dire situation. And also I am not encouraging picking up open time, I am not supporting the company to rape us on a daily basis. All am saying many pilots will never listen to the advice no matter how much we stress it, and believe me it happens everyday.

I agree with your point and I respect your comments.

This is first hand experience of what I am trying to explain to everyone. I guess I should not be drinking Jack and Coke in the morning does not help. But guys the point I was trying to make is that many pilots at Transstates have been downgraded and possible furloughed, they will have financial difficulty and you do not have to have a home and car, but student loans that cost more than a new car or home and other responsibily will break you.

2007 yearly earning from 3 Regional FOs
Person A - $18,784
Person B - $19,125
Person C - $22,568 includes JR for time/half.

Guys fly the contract and keep your head up......

If "extending your life and reaching the American Dream" means putting oneself in such a precarious situation that one setback causes that new house of cards to fall, I guess we don't dream the same thing.

THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS A QUOTE AND NOT MY WORDS

That is the exact same justification that people make for joining alter egos and crossing picket lines. I am not trying to say that not picking up open time will cure all the evils of this industry. If you have to put food on the table and it is such a dire situation, then you friend probably needs to consider a different occupation, regardless of how much he believes he loves flying. If there is so much open time available then it is a staffing issue and there doesnt need to be downgrades and furloughs. By picking up open time from a company that is actively participating in these practices all you are doing is encouraging it and showing them that they can operate on these reduced levels. Bottom line is companies that do this put pilots on the streets.[/QUOTE]


Amen Brother! And those folks whose kids need to eat (unlike mine I guess) are sure to enjoy the spoils of the sacrifice others have made.

"Who will help me eat the bread?" -The Little Red Hen

they know exactly what they're doing and they do it on purpose. the 25 years of excellence is them paying themselves, certainly not taking care of employees. hk would buy robots and have them fly the planes if he could...or even monkeys. new world monkeys with the prehensile tails. but anyway, they know what they're doing...they're looking out for themselves and purposefully and repeatedly screwing over the employees.

i think some of you guys are a little extreme when you compare picking up open time to crossing the picket line. many quick to point and condemn.

Not sure where you got that from?!

I never said anything about new house of card falling. I never said he will have to kill his wife and Hulas to make it another day. My point for the last time is everyone will need to do what they have to do.

And once again I ask. Your point again is???????????????????????????

Maybe I'm missing someones point? Thats what I was reading.

Open Time compared to Picket Lines and Alter-Egos???

Come on folks, the open time issue is fairly weak.

Now if you can manage without picking up OT, great, you may save somebody a furlough letter.

But I know plenty of folks who live for OT, each and every month (not going to discuss the wisdom of that). I'm not sure I'd tell them that they are obligated to stop picking it up (when they've been doing it all along) and change their lifestyle on those grounds. It is pretty ridiculous to tell someone to go into debt, trade in a car, or downsize the home over something this nebulous.

The guys who are furloughed have other options...they can do whatever they want or need to do.

The guys who are NOT furloughed still have to make ends meet, and generally don't have the option to fly on the outside...they have to function within their corporate boundries.

BTW, I don't do OT myself.

As crappy as this sounds, it is true. I'd love to rip into you for that statement. But, stepping back three feet, it is just the way it is. However, this is human nature and isn't anymore prevalent in this industry as any other. People take care of self, family, friends, and the rest of humanity, in that order. Self comes first. People are nice and friendly to others when self is taken care of. But when self becomes put in jeopardy, all social veneers are out the window until it is restored. Harsh reality, eh? Regardless of the apparency out there in that sea of faces, only the tigers survive and even they have a hard time.

I can tell you for sure I'm not picking up Open Time. I'm single and don't have much debt at all (<$500/mo)

But for the guys out there who are married with kids trying to keep the family afloat, they have an excuse.

Open time sometimes is such a crap shoot anyway. That was once a lame excuse for the furloughed pilot cause. If you had furloughs in your company then to "show" management you needed to recall furloughed pilots no one would pick up open time. If your company doesn't have furloughs then "fo' get a 'bout it".

okay, last time... two points
1. If one is spending 100% of his income and increases his spending with each pay raise, don't expect any sympathy or help from those of us who are living within our means and putting some away for a rainy day.

2. Picking up extra time means the company needs fewer pilots.
Example: Company T has 500 pilots (250 CA and 250 FO). Each flies 70 hours per month. The company loses 10% of its business and needs to cut 50 pilots. 50 FOs get laid off and 25 CAs are rolled back. But unfortunately for the management, they are still losing money. The company starts offering extra time; 200 of the remaining pilots (a bit less than half the folks) pick up 3.5 hours per month. For every 20 of those pilots who pick up the extra time, another pilot can be eliminated (20 X 3.5 = 70). That means those 200 folks picking up extra time eliminate 10 more jobs, and (unfortunately for people like your buddy) FIVE more CA get rolled back to FO.

That is as simple as I can make it. If you still don't get the point, I guess I will go apply to be a street CA at GoJets. (It's good for ME)

I am not sure where everyone has started to compare the scab thing and the alter ego thing with picking up open time, maybe I missed somewhere but whatever. I also disagree with you on the issue of open time being weak. It has a major effect on companies if there is significant flying that needs to be covered. For a fee for departure carrier cancellations can be costly

Seriously though guys, the last time the company did this was in May '06. The furlough lasted for 39 days. Lets hope the same thing happens again. They said we've lost two planes worth of flying, so that is about 22 pilots worth, making it 44 total...i dunno why it's 80 pilots being furloughed though

The word out on the line is that there's going to be 80 furloughs. Spend 25K X 80 only to furlugh them. Hopefully, for us at the bottom of the list, TSA learned from their 06 mistake. There were a few that I've talked to who said if they are furloughed they're not coming back and some are going to leave the profession for good. Oh well if it does happen it won't be so bad, take a little break for the summer, maybe try construction and hopefully by fall I would have been recalled. :rolleyes:

Where did this "Furloughing 80 pilots" come from?

No names, but when asked about this in the mgrs office today they said: downgrading 22 and NO furloughs (as of Friday May 16 anyways). Then just bull**** talkin they were hoping to pick up flying this fall if/when other regionals go under/ lose contracts, which would leave us not having to furlough at all.

i could be wrong, but I think the 80 pilot furlough rumor is getting carried away, read this thread from start to finish you will see evolve from idea to rumor to fact.

I agree...

Furloughs will come when they become cost effective to the company and right now it wouldn't be cost effective to repeat the 2006 fiasco.

You know, 176 FOs in STL does seem a bit high? Highest I've seen thus far, last month, we had 14x of them. I guess attrition stopped and when the last 2 months classes came out it fattened us up pretty good.

I can see a bit of a problem if we are losing flying. But, regardless of what Hulas thinks, being fat is an asset, to a point. The question may just come down to how fat is still cost effective. If they did furlough, it'd probably just be the last class or two of folks rather than those of us who've been out on the line for a while. Just their way of undoing the fact that they were too slow in reading the signs and canceling those classes.

While I agree with your opinion, I still think it is premature to discuss the cost benifit analysis of this just yet. why, because like others have said they have and idea today, and act on it tomorrow with out any kind of forethought. It will likely be an over reaction and then it will take that snowball six months to roll down hill and stop.

I have been thinking on this for a few days now, and I have come to the conclusion that I am wasting time to trying to figure it out. For now why dont we all just ride this puppy and see what happens. I think all we know right now is we have 22 Captains, and I going to refer to them as captains to honor their hard work and dedication to up grade that are flying as FO's now, 22 ****ed off guys/gals. That is all I know for sure at this point

there was a memo in our mailboxes today asking for volunteer leave of absences.

did the memo say anything about how long the LOA supposed to be

some points to remember.

1. im very sorry to hear about the impending downgrades/furloughs-- hopefully the captain recommendation program will kick in again that TC and i began-- it was extremely successful-- we assisted in about 90% of the furloughees getting interviews and they got hired elsewhere by using ur contacts and giving recommendation letters to them when they went to the interview--- talk to to your Union reps about it-- they should remember or they can get in touch with me and i can help out again-- I'd be happy to do it again. Skywest ( everyone wanted to go there) was the hardest, but maybe we have some contacts over there now, CHQ was the best-- they even offered $$ to the recommending pilot for prospective applicants

2. just remember if you get another job, you cannot take your sick time and you vacation with you ( captains this is way more $$$ than f.o's) dont forget about how you resign w/regards to sick time vs bonus money. for some if you have alot of sick time and are getting another job, it pays to call in sick b/.c the sick time resignation bonus of 600 is a joke especially for capts-- hmmm call in sick for a 20-25 hr 4 day at 70 a hr or get the 600. all im telling you is dont leave anything "on the table".

3. i wont say dont pick up open time b/c thats illegal job action, so all i will say is Enjoy your time off from work , whther it be with or visiting family, doing your favorite hobby, home improvements etc. whatever jst go out an enjoy your time off.

4. if you get furloughed, take unemployment, get another bizjet type rating, and drink heavily and see about getting some travel benes whilst furloughed -- to help go to interviews or just travel-- -work with the union on that.

SKIPPY, waiting.....for my notice too

Can you file for unemployment on a voluntary furlough

no. just that if you want to volunteer you can, and that they ARE thinking about further action.

What exactly is a LOA and it's benefits, the contract just says how to get it but not what it is. Is it just lawyer talk for voluntary furlough?

well i just flew with one of the guys that got the downgrade call....what can i say that hasn't been said already..Good luck to all of us.

This voluntary leave memo......well i think they're just trying to see how many of us bite....the more that bite, the less chance there will be of mass furlough.......as for bennies...you loose your flight bennies and pay longevity, but keep your sen. no.,....... but, apparently if you talk to the boss you can work a 'deal' to keep your flight bennies....now that would be an interesting conversation.

You should not loose longevity, it should just stop for the term of the leave.
That believe how it is worded in the contract

What idiots...they expect anyone to take LOA without flight bennies??? What's the point of that? Watch basic cable and drink BPR all day?

I wonder how far back they will go. 70-80 FOs? The memo alludes to the fact that they are going to downgrade more Capts. If this is correct, the math seems to indicate that anyone north of the June - July 07 new hire classes is toast. And those who were hired around then are back on reserve for a long time.

Ditto on the flight bennies...They're dumber than a doorknob if they think they can yank those on an LOA :rolleyes:

how do LOAs work? is it like volunteering to be furloughed or what?