Jumpseating on Skywest
 

So I found myself in beautiful Santa Maria (SMX) yesterday trying to pick up one of our aircraft from the paint shop. Of course, the ship was not ready and I did not feel like getting a hotel and staying in SMX for 8 hours. I tried to JS on Skywest. My airline is in CASS, but does not have a reciprocal with Skywest. I asked if I could speak to the Captain when the aircraft arrived to get a ride to LAX, and the lady said "no". She said that a captain could not override the procedures manual. Any thoughts on this guys/gals? I thought the Captain had final authority? Did I just ask the wrong person on the wrong day? Thanks for any imput.

SA227 freightdog

We've been having a problem with gate agents thinking they own the jumpseat. Who do you work for?

I fly for Ameriflight. We are in CASS under "AMF" or "A8". But, we only have a reciprocal with SWA, but I've had luck with other carriers and I've jumpseated on SKW before from ABQ to DEN, but I was also already at the gate and my friend was the Captain on the flight.
The gate agents said the pilot cannot go against the operations manual, so I didn't press it any further and I knew I probably couldn't of gotten through the security checkpoint with the SKW ticket agents standing right there. I didn't want to **** off the ticket agents and I had to get moving back down toward LA so I just rented a car.

First off, there is no way he could let you in the cockpit, if that's what you were asking. Generally the captain has to follow company/FAA procedures unless there is an emergency.

The CA does have some latitude when it comes to DENYING jumpseaters, (ie he may not need a good reason to deny a jumpseater).

However, if you do not have a JS agreement with SKW, then the CA would be violating company policy by basically giving away a free seat to a member of the general public...in the 121 world this is considered "nonrev fraud" and will get you fired immediately at most companies. Basically, it is like stealing as far as the company is concerned...kind of like asking the CA to go open up the company safe and give you $300.

In some cases you might get lucky, I have seen 135 and even fractional types talk their way into a cabin seat...but in this case you MUST have the gate agent's concurrence. She has final say as to who gets on the airplane...if you're going to bend the rules you would need her to go along.

Nect time try bringing cookies for the gate agent.

Yes we do. Even for our own pilots.

I doubt the captain would take somebody not specifically listed in our approved list, however.

I hate dealing with gate agents. Today they tried to deny me the jumpseat on my own airline...clueless

I didn't really mind if there was a seat up front, just a seat in the back would have been fine. Like I said, I asked, I was denied and I moved on. I was trying to see of there was any way of avoiding a 3 hour drive back to LA.

TONYWILLIAMS,

How long have you been in FAT? Don't happen to remember a Capt by the name of Don do you? He's at SWA now.

I was in FAT last summer on the jet, and will return next month on the Bro. Don't recall any Don's, but that doesn't mean much to my feeble brain.

Lots and lots of SkW guys at SWA (I think they like us :D)

You should see about getting a jumpseat agreement with us. We have one with Key lime air and they are pretty much the same thing as ameriflight

Sure he could ride in the cockpit. He has CASS. Reciprocal agreements have nothing to do with that. Reciprocal simply means the pilot group has an agreement with the airline and is definitely authorized to jumpseat, not that they are the ONLY airlines that can jumpseat. Nothing in the FOM about reciprocal js, only in union material generally.

You're going to get someone in a lot of trouble with this advice. The GOM/FOM is REGULATORY...that means it's just like FAR's.

I'm familiar with three airline manuals, and they all list who is authorized in the jumpseat, quite specifically. Not Listed = Not Authorized.

If you want to make your own decisions, feel free, but don't spread bad gouge that's going to get someone fired.

Rick I think we work at the same company, and my FOM says that he can.

it states:
" The Company requires the following of OAL flight deck jumpseaters:
1. Be an active employee of a CASS-authorized air carrer
2. Possess a valid (not expired) air carier ID badge."

In addition on the next page,
"Flight Deck Jumpseat -Eligibility
To be eligible for the flight deck jumpseat, the individual must be listed above (various company employees) or a:
1. Jumpseat-authorized employee from a TSA/FAA CASS approved airline. Pilots and Dispatchers from other CASS approved airlines (oal) can flight deck jumpseat domestically; intl OAL flight deck jumpseating is prohibited.

And Class 8 jumpseaters....per FOM...."Walk up jumpseaters for US domestic certified pilots, PFE's, and dispatchers employes by 14 CFR part 121 or 135 air carriers participating in the CASS program."

The poster met ALL these requirements, so i dont think I'll be getting anyone fired :cool: Check your facts on this one before you think i'm getting someone in trouble....

Just so that everyone understands, that may be true at your airline or the three airlines you are talking about, but its not true of all airlines.

Any Amerifreighter is welcomed in my jumpseat whenever they want.;)

I agree with Rick. If the manual doesn't say someone can sit in the cockpit then there's no way I would let them up front. Like he said, that would be breaking an FAR and I imagine you could get your license suspended for that.

actually rick I'm not sure you are at my airline you have too many posts to figure out which one you are at :) and as neverts said all airlines are different.

I still dont see how with me posting it in black and white some people still think I'm breaking the regs...

I thought you were suggesting that people disregard their GOM. If the GOM says it's OK, then it is good from a reglatory point of view.

SKW company policy states that a reciprocating agreement is required, so the CA would have been violating company, if not FAA policy. It's his call in that case, but the gate agent would need to play along...you can't board the airplane without the gate agent's approval.

My first 121 employer did have a recip with amflight. I had an amflight buddy who was going to take me for a ride on his trip once SAN-ONT-SAN), but the company would not allow it due to insurance. I'm guessing maybe SKW doesn't offer recip agreements to companies who are not permitted by their insurance to accept jumpseaters :rolleyes:

Things may have changed since I was there but there was a legal way at getting around jumpseating on AMF. Then again, if this is really an insurance company issue, all bets are off.

By the way, maybe you can ask SKW to allow jumpseaters from a non-reciprocating airline but at a lower priority. I know that a number of airlines do that.

What is the deal with Skywest weights?!?!? In 2 years and 2 companies I have never turned down a jumpseater due to w&b. Weight restrictions on PPWRK mean nothing either they are just a starting point you can always play with fuel and taxi fuel.

I understand that some gate agents wont allow more people than what is on the ppwrk but I've been turned down after passing the gate agent and introducing myself in the cockpit...

I've done some creative things to get people to/from work just because I don't want to leave them behind.

I've been denied the J/S on skywest 4 times in the approx. past 6 months. Even Mesa always tries to work the weights to get me on. I'm not saying every time I try to get on SKW it doesnt work but more SKW than PNCL, EAGLE, XJ, and MESA. Those are just the Regionals I fly on to get home.

I do enjoy the SKW crews when I do ride and they always treat me well but there are a few of your capts in ord that really could give a crap and its too bad. I know my company has it's share of jerks also.

I am curious though; why can't SKW play with its weights? We do ours on ACARS too just not the Collins software.

Yep, every time somebody bags on us for still using a "whiz wheel" and calculator to do W/B, I think of how many people we've gotten to/from work by being able to adjust numbers that "software" probably wouldn't let us...

I've been denied the jumpseat *many* more times on ERJ's than on Skywest's CRJ's.

In two years of flying the thing I've never had to deny someone, so you must be having really bad luck. It has happened to me occasionally with a combination of a distant alternate, a lot of holding fuel, and a forward empty CG. In that case, there's literally nothing we can do to get you on. We work just as hard as anyone to accommodate jumpseaters, but you can only fudge fuel so much and still be legal...and ACARS doesn't let you lie very much.

I will try to clear a few things up here.........

first the jumpseat is "owned" by the FAA. next comes the company ownership, if they want to give the captain ALL authority then that is up to them, but that was a company decision. At skywest management wants a reciprocal agreement before it goes to the third in line.......the captain. Once it passes the first two it now becomes the captains authority to deny or allow the jumpseater. If you meet the requirements of cockpit access (electronic verification CASS or internally for "online" and "codeshare" pilots, then you may ride in the cockpit.

Now let's clear up what CASS is and what it is not.............

CASS requires each individual airline to input a CASS carrier code into their computer so that the agents can look you up. If you do not have an agreement with that carrier the agents can input your two letter code all day long and it will not recognize it. At skywest on the UAX side (which is what SMX would have been to LAX) we are subjected to the limitations of UAL's computer system, so in this case if the agent was attempting to use CASS and you do not have a CASS agreement with UAL you cannot get verified. Having said that there is a mechanism in the system to allow agents to look up skywests agreement list which would allow you to get a cabin seat only. So just because you are a CASS airline does not mean you can automatically jumpseat in the cockpit of any CASS carrier.

As to Ameriflight..........you are not CASS. Ameriflight sells a subprogram that LOOKS like CASS but in fact is not a true CASS agreement through ARINC. In fact here is the latest list from ARINC dated June 4th 2008 ,,,,,,,,No Ameriflight:

ABX Air (GB)
Airnet Systems (USC)
AirTran (FL)
Air Cargo Carriers (2Q)
Air Midwest (ZV)
Air Transport International (8C)
Air Wisconsin (ZW)
Alaska Air (AS)
Allegiant Air (G4)
Aloha (AQ)
America West (HP)
American (AA)
American Eagle (AA)
Ameristar (AJI)
Arctic Transportation Services (7S)
Arrow Cargo (JW)
ASTAR Air Cargo (ER)
Atlantic Southeast (EV)
Atlas Air (5Y)
Aviation Services Ltd dba Freedom Air (FP)
Bering Air (8E)
Cape Air (9K)
Capital Cargo International (PT)
Champion Air (MG)
Chautauqua Airlines (RP)
Colgan Air (9L)
Comair (OH)
Commutair (C5)
Compass Airlines (CP)
Continental Airlines (CO)
Delta (DL)
Empire (EM)
Eos Airlines (E0)
Evergreen Airlines (EZ)
Everts Air (3Z)
Executive (AA) is American Eagle's SJU Operation
Expressjet / Continental Express (XE)
FedEx (FX)
Florida West International Airways(RF)
Freedom Airlines (F8)
Frontier (F9)
Gemini Air Cargo (GR)
GoJet Airlines (G7)
Great Lakes Aviation (ZK)
Hageland Aviation (H6)
Hawaiian Airlines (HA)
Horizon Air (QX)
IFL Group (IF)
Island Air (WP)
JetBlue (B6)
Kalitta Air (K4)
Kalitta Charters II (CB)
Kalitta Charters LLC (KFS)
Key Lime Air (KG)
Lynden Air Cargo (L2)
Lynx Aviation (L4)
Mesa Airlines (YV)
Mesaba (XJ)
Midwest Airlines (YX)
Murray Air (5M)
North American Airlines (NA)
Northern Air Cargo (NC)
Northwest (NW)
Omni Air International (OY)
Pace Airlines (Y5)
PenAir (KS)
Piedmont Airlines (US)
Pinnacle (9E)
Polar Air Cargo (PO)
Primaris (FE)
PSA Airlines (US)
Republic Airlines (RP)
Ryan International (RD)
Shuttle America (RP)
Skyway Enterprises (KI)
SkyWest(OO)
Southwest (WN)
Spirit Air (NK)
Sun Country Airlines (SY)
Swift Air (Q7)
Tradewinds Airlines (WI)
Trans North Aviation (7T)
Trans States Airlines (AX)
United (UA)
USA 3000 (U5)
USA Jet Airlines (JUS)
UPS Airlines (5X)
US Airways (US)
Virgin America (VX)
World Airways (WO)
Xtra Airways (XP)

How can you fudge Zero fuel weight? You are either under it, at it, over it. I know on the west coast everything is done to accomodate j/s folks at OO including moving bags into the cabin that are green tagged. If someone knows a trick please share.

SKW crews will generally make every effort to get JSer on board (we may have a few bad apples like any other airline). But the vast majority of our airplanes have acars, and you cannot fudge the ZFW with acars.

It's illegal to go if acars does not match the ramp's pax/bag count.

Often the problem is CG...the JSer throws the CG too far forward, but you can't add 400 lbs in the back for balance due to ZFW.

I can't remember an instance of where we ran up on max zero fuel weight, because 9 times out of ten we run into problems with the max landing weight. This is simple. Either the captain is comfortable in being more liberal with the fuel number or he/she's not.

As a general rule, if the captain of the flight is a commuter himself, he will be more willing to help out.

Just your luck that ORD is a junior base, my friend! Unfortunately there are a few guys there (at least that I know of), that never should have taken that 14 month upgrade...come to think of it, they never should have gotten their Pilot cert's...Hmm...

But anyway, best of luck as always :)

I know at union carriers the jumpseat is something that is negotiated between the company and the union. I would guess this is why probably most of them allow even non-reciprocal or non-CASS people to jumpseat although at the lowest priority.

From personal experience, I don't think that is true. I've always seen people that are in CASS be able to jumpseat regardless of whether we had a reciprical agreement with them.

::edit:: reply was a little bit harsh...

I guarantee you someone at your company is taking the list sent from ARINC and inputting each new code (airline). So even if your company does not have an "agreement" if your "policy" is to take all CASS carriers then they are input in the system. Not sure who you work for, but if it is a regional, you are probably "piggy backing" on your mainline carriers CASS, so it is possible that your carrier does not have an agreement with an airline, but the mainline company does......thus you see the CASS query come back approved even if you do not have an agreement. I know each carrier is required to have their own software system to operate CASS. These systems are not linked to automatically update when another carrier becomes CASS. This is why ARINC sends out a list whenever there is a change. The list I posted above was sento out because one airline had become CASS (Aviation Services Ltd dba Freedom Air (FP).

The point was that the original complaint stated that Ameriflight was CASS (they are not) and therefore this pilot should be allowed to speak with the captain.....................both statements were flawed.

You may be right. I work for XJT. Maybe there is some sort of manual input to be able to make it so its the way our union negotiated it with the company. As you know, we are a regional but also do flying under our own name and take jumpseaters from any CASS airline from gates that are not affiliated with any other mainline partner.

As for AMF, I will defer to you. If I remember, I try to go up to the gate and see if there are any jumpseaters that are being denied a courtesy meeting with me just in case there is a gate agent that is not being cooperative.

Years ago, pre 9/11 I believe, SkyWest did have a jumpseat agreement with AMF.

Wish you would have been the Capt when i tried to jumpseat on XJT my airline is on the CASS list, and has a jumpseat agreement with XJT but the agent couldnt find me on the list. I was able to talk to the Capt she said no as well. I had to fork out the dough for a last minuite ticket really dissapointing when there was only 20 people on the flight. Oh well though thats just the way it goes i dont take it personally nor hold the Capt at fault, she was just following protocol.

Going over old posts I see.

I'll add that some airlines require CASS to produce a picture ID to allow you to jumpseat (i.e. Fedex and UPS). I'm not sure but I had heard that XJT does not put your picture in CASS.

Yea what else are you gonna do when you live in a hotel for a month at a time.

deleted p.e.

Pictures are a CASS requirement sent down from TSA (passport requirements have been deleted by TSA). If an airline is a CASS carrier....they have pictures available. Some stations computers cannot accommodate pictures (Delta in OAK for example), so that may be what you are seeing, but XJT, and every other CASS carrier has a picture in their respective CASS data base.

Dude I didn't catch a word you said. I was too distracted by your avatar very nice!!:p

How can you say AMF is NOT in CASS? Does the FAA/TSA allow pilots to sit in the cockpit who are not?

I am former AMF and have watched Southwest agents input the Ameriflight CASS code, seen my picture appear on the screen and get legal cockpit approval.

I've also seen the list that Southwest pilots have in their Jepp Sized Ops Manual that lists all airlines approved for the cabin and those specifically in CASS with recip. agreements. Ameriflight is under the CASS section there as well.

Ameriflight is not an ARINC CASS carrier. ARINC publishes a list of CASS carriers that have signed contracts with ARINC and Ameriflight is not on that list. However, I spoke with ARINC on this, and the Director there told me Ameriflight had developed some sort of program that their POI, and TSA bought off on, thus allowing them cockpit access. I don't know if it is routed the same way or not, and I don't know the details as it is really none of my business. My understanding though is Ameriflight does have the ability to gain access to cockpit jumpseats.....I do not know if that is only with certain types of computer systems (i.e SWA has a very unique system when it comes to the software they use for gate agents for Revenue, non revenue and CASS) or if it available to all....I guess I could ask ARINC this question, but SkyWest does not have an agreement with Ameriflight so I am not that motivated to do so.