Number 3
 

You might earn what Guatemalans would refer to as a "living" in the regionals. But you will not be able to make a life out of it. What does your wife wish to study?

SkyHigh

Your kidding right????

So why don't you call it PFI instead of PFT. EVERYBODY "pays for training" so it seems the beef most people have with these places is these guys/gals "pay for interview".

You still present only a paper theory on how to tackle the problem of PFT and low wages. Communism looks good on paper, too, yet put into practice its a disaster.

I have the utmost respect for all pilots and if we all banded together to say no to these management morons then I wouldn't hesitate for a second to join my brothers in arms. Problem is it'll never happen and those brave enough to do this would be shooting themselves in the foot. I too think we are worth much more than we are paid but is there anyone willing to go beyond pilot message board theory and actually make an effort to gather pilots together to tackle the daunting task of making a difference in our pay? My guess is no.

What?
 

The reason that Major's pilots can't strike to protect their jobs is because the same shady types that are willing to cut corners to get into the industry will DEFINATELY stab them in the back so they can say "I fly a boeing now". You say these guys should strike and take down a major, well I don't know what you do to earn a living but striking to kill your company and lose the senority that you have is NOT the idea here. Yes, striking can work if it brings the QOL up although some at the bottom might take a year off for it. However, why would anyone want to just "take down a major". This would mean that all those guys that had worked for many years to ensure a stable retirement would lose everything.
I keep telling myself I won't respond to the "Ignorance" found in these type threads, but it pains me to no end to see people running so blindly into their own demise that I always give in.:(

XtremeF150

Wrong attitude. You want to be paid an honest salary for an honest day's work. Don't be an aviation *****.

How many of you are regional guys who went to the Comair Academy, Mesa Airlines School, Gulfstream International... etc and then got on with a commuter for low wages?

I don't mean to be a wise guy, but I am curious to know why some guys did it. And didn't a lot of these guys come from these airline cookie cutter mills? I'm sure some of your fellow cockpit mates trained at one of these schools.

Flying Ninja, you ask why pilot unions don't just walk off the job and strike. Read up on the Railway Labor Act. The airlines are goverened by this. Basically, labor and management get to go round and round a number of times with federal mediators before they can legally strike. It was put in place because aviation (and at the time, railroads) are deemed 'vital to our economy' and as a result anything which could stop the flow of people is avoided.

It may be a little ignorance. But being an observer sitting on the side lines, all I see is pilots complaining about getting shafted, yet they are the ones that are accepting the shaft with all these concessions. They talk about striking, but honestly, you hit the nail right on the head. Pilots are not going to walk away from all they've worked for to take down a major. My statement was to put it out there that pilots should either strike or shut up about it. It's like pointing an unloaded gun at someone. We all know you're harmless, so stop pretending.

Right, which means all the talk about what's "bringing the industry down" isn't what type of pilots are going into the airlines. If there are pilots out there willing to work for nothing, then that's the way it's going to be. The way I see it, there is no solution to keep pay scale up. Pilots keep on accepting concessions, and airlines keep getting the pay cuts that they want at the end. So all the strike talk that's out there is just posturing and empty threats and I'm sure the airlines by now have figured it out. After all, how many concessions have Delta pilots taken so far? How many are they going to take in the near future? NWA pilots just took a concession. And airlines will continue to get concessions until people stop desiring to work for the airlines due to the low quality of life and pay. Until then, pilots of all walks of life that get hired will continue to get hired.

Once the bk's stablize out this shi& will turn arround. And strike we will! In the meantime lets get the 121 right seat mins up to 1500 hrs, atp, and 300 multi.
Very simple! again supply and demand. Oil supply(output)=price.
likewise
Too many ("qualified" (ie. <1000hr pilots))=14-70k a year

It's a paper theory because of the reasons stated here. There are plenty of pilots out there who are willing to work for less, so the solution hasn't had a chance to be attempted. However, the lower pay due to scope is real. Ask the guys and gals at Mesa. I really hope they come out on top when contract time rolls around.

Based on past instances, unions have fought the airlines (mainly on safety issues like duty times and aircraft equipment) and won. An airline doesn't last long if pilots aren't willing to fly. Executives won't be getting huge bonuses if no money is coming in (actually, I think I've already been proven wrong on that one). The bad thing is that there are too many people out there that will jump into the seat for less. This is what I don't understand. Everybody is so busy trying to have a leg up that they're willing to cut everyone else's throats to do so. There isn't a lot of upward movement right now, and there likely won't be for a while. Why shouldn't you expect (and demand) what you deserve while you're waiting for that move?

Maybe we should change the name to (PFASTHLTIST) Paying For Airline-Specific Training and Hiring at Lower-Than-Industry-Standard Times. Once you hold the respective rating that you need for a job (Comm, ATP, CFI, whatever) you should not have to pay for training specific to the job you're doing. Like any other industry, you should be hired based on your experience and ability, after hired they should at least be paying for any training needed above and beyond your qualifications. The guy at McDonalds doesn't pay to learn how to use the fryer...

Yup, ATP mins for 121.

Exactly! No one should pay for any training beyond FAA professional certificates, including type ratings.

keep in mind that it takes them 52 weeks to get thru upt... with i think around 200 total hours out of that... INTENSIVE ground training

How do you propose to do that? Hiring minimums (above FAA experience requirements) are a reflection of supply and demand. If demand (for pilots) is low and supply is high, then minimums rise. Take the JetBlue and Southwest minimums for example. If supply is low and demand is high, the minimums drop. Take ASA's 600/100 or Mesa's sign-here-if-you're-breathing-and certified minimums, for example.

In a free market, low supply/high demand would also mean something else: that prices for labor (wages) would rise. Our union contracts preclude that from happening, at least until the contract is amended. The current climate of majors rejecting contracts in bankruptcy also has a chilling effect on rising wages, but as you said, that is a temporary problem.

My hope is that what will happen is that companies will realize that even at rock-bottom minimums they cannot fill enough seats to meet demand. There will always be a few who will PFT, but the vast majority of people follow the money. When people realize that they can't live on airline wages, they will go to law school or med school instead. When that happens, the airlines will have to raise the price they pay for labor, both in terms of actual dollars and QOL improvements, to attract pilots to their company.

Additionally, I believe that fractionals are going to exert an upward pressure on regional wages and QOL. After all, both industries are competing for a limited number of qualified pilots and fractionals have or are trending toward much better wages and contracts.

The first step in turning things around is not to bash PFT. It's to hold the line at current levels. Kudos to Independence, ASA, Mesaba, Pinnacle, and other companies that are resisting/have resisted calls for concessions and pay cuts. Other companies such as Chataco, Mesa, and Comair have some work to do as far as bringing their current contracts up to "industry average" and/or standing up to management.

We absolutely have to stop the slide to the bottom before we can think about improving our industry.

I would suggest an extensive lobby campaign to legislate that ALL airline pilots meet ATP requirements.

Hopefully the micro-jet air-taxi folks will soon start scooping up all of the 1000 hour pilots.

CHQ and Mesa simply outgrew their turbo-prop contracts and are trying catch up. COMAIR did pretty well until recently, but it's tough to hold out for much in Ch.11.

Yeah, the microjets will definitely help use up some of the pilot supply. Unfortunately, they may also take away some of the demand for airline seats. We'll have to see how that works out.

From what I hear, the Comair concession vote was pretty close. I'm not sure that it made a difference. I think that their future has already been decided one way or another.

As far as Mesa goes, I think that your contract is amendable in 2007 if I remember correctly. The eyes of the whole industry are already on you. I know that you guys have been fighting back against JO the last year or so. I hope that you will stick to your guns and fight for a contract that will help us all.