If You Fly For A "Regional" Airline, READ THIS POST!
 

This is an excerpt from the most recent ALPA blast-mail...

"Airline managements persist in arguing that, after a bankrupt airline has rejected our contract, the National Mediation Board and the Railway Labor Act, which they insist played no role in the bankruptcy process, are somehow now magically reinstalled to force airline workers into a modern form of indentured servitude," said Capt. Woerth.

"While both Northwest and Delta cases have received national news media coverage, the case that seems destined to fully chart the depths of these uncharted waters is Mesaba Airlines," said Capt. Woerth. "The fight that Mesaba pilots face is simply the most egregious any ALPA pilot group has faced these last few years for a wide variety of reasons."

Capt. Woerth urged members to watch what happens at the three airlines, suggesting that it was a pivotal moment for the airline piloting profession. He said that circumstances would probably force a confrontation between labor and management within the next few weeks.

"You should be paying close attention to these battles," said Capt. Woerth. "If your fellow pilots stand up for justice, it is in your best interest to back them up. The legal fight over pilots' rights as American citizens may determine the course of all of our careers."



The reason that I am posting this is because this industry and our personal standards are under attack and some of you that are reading this are NOT HELPING!

For those of you that will fly ANY jet for ANY payscale, no matter who you screw or who you step on, I say only this...

Please stop the madness! I have recently been faced with a cutback at my airline and the flying that we do will be passed on to someone else, presumably the lowest bidder. Yes, I am refering to ExpressJet. I am aware that it is not "MY" flying, but it is CAL's flying that they are giving to the lowest bidder. But i have been with XJT a long time and I think we run a first class operation.

For those of you that fly for Mesa or Chautauqua or whoever, think about this. Since Comair's concessions, we (ExpressJet) are considered one of the highest paying "regionals" in the industry. If you want to fly for Continental, thats fine, but when your management comes to you for the deal, dont except ANYTHING less than what CURRENT ExpressJet Pilots are getting for that flying. By accepting less, you may preserve your own job for a small time, but you will drag down the entire industry and ALL regional pilots will have less bargaining power because of you. And one day, when you yourselves are undercut, you'll be just as angry as I am, and you'll have no one to blame but yourselves.

Just ask yourselves this question, "If you lower your standards just a little this time in order to get someone elses flying, in 5 years, when someone else lowers their standards to get YOUR flying, how will you feel?"

I fear the day will come when we have, in an effort to preserve ANY flying job we can, lowered the bar so far that you and I will be earning minimum wage. Sound nuts? Think about the direction we are headed and look 10, 12, 15 years into the future. Oil at $100, $150, $175 per barrel perhaps.

Personally, I dream of the day when ALL pilots stand up and walk away in unity and disgust. Airline managers and executives have run a fear campaign through the airline pilot community that would make even George W. Bush proud. They have scared all of us into a retreat in pay and benefits that will benefit only a select few who hold the stocks and options. They preach costs and bankruptcy and cutbacks in order to save the airline, then they take MILLIONS from the federal goverment in relief and you never see any of that money back. When will it end?

Stop this downward spiral and madness, stand up for a decent wages and benefits and SUPPORT YOUR FELLOW AIRLINE PILOTS BY NOT UNDERMINING THEIR BARGAINING POWER TO SAVE YOURSELF A SEAT!

I understand where you're coming from, but those of us who are operating under a sh*tty contract do not have the option of refusing to fly if told to do so. OK, I can refuse, but they would simply junior man somebody else. There a plenty of 300 hour PFT kids just waiting for a $13,000 airline job.

Our only recourse is longer term solutions:

Mesa killed freedom in 2003, their next contract should improve their situation and reduce their management's ability to undercut other airlines..

TSA is fighting GoJet, not sure about Chatuaqa and Republic.

A lot of this has to do with mainline: They need to toe the godd@mn line on scope...regionals don't get anything bigger than 50 seats, period. NWA is trying real hard, hopefully they can kill or rein in SJets. The people who have some leverage need to exercise it; first-year regional FOs who are up to their @sses in debt are not going to refuse to fly on principle unless it's struck work.

so exactly who are you point fingers at about the xpress jet flying anyways.... I know alot of carriers flying for less than Xjet's contract currently and whoever wins that flying will not gain anything by refusing any new flying... whoever refuses will only be outbid by someone else... its a never ending chain. Besides that fact, I do beleive that the PILOTS have no SAY anyways!! Management has the final say on any contract bid regardless. I do still believe there must be a minimum contract standard for all regionals!! don't beat on me I only speak from what I have seen in the past and what looks like the UNFORTUNATE future

I agree with you Steam Driver. This has been going on since the advent of aviation. Like an unemployed individual with a sign on his lap, “Will work for food.”

In the mid 70s when I was in college, I had a deal with a VIASA captain to ferry crop dusters on a periodic basis to South America from Oklahoma. I made some pretty decent cash too. At that time, furloughed pilots were on the streets looking for anything. My group of 5 fellow pilots was canned from the South American importing operation. Some furloughed Eastern pilots did it for just about nothing. You know the old saying, “Nothing personal… but business is business.” Can’t blame the VIASA chap… increases his profit margin. These guys, who displaced my group, just wanted to stay current. How about that?!?!

People… the lunatics have been running the asylum for years and years. The madness will never stop as long as there is an ample supply of body to fill seats for the right price. You need to go directly to the source of where these new pilots are coming from. You must hawk your cause and try to win over these COMAIR Academy students, MESA School students, or EMBRY RIDDLE students why he or she, who have spent $40,000 plus dollars why they shouldn’t take a job at one of these commuters even at $13,000 per year. Good luck Steam Driver… you’ll need it.

So what would happen to XJT if CAL gave their flying to someone else??
Who would they codeshare with?

As a recent "fast track" grad, I doubt there was anything you could have told me that would have affected my decision to fly. That being said, had the entry-level wages been less, I doubt in my situation I could have gone forward. I am still as green as they come, but at least now I am willing to listen to the wisdom you experienced people pass on here. Fast track programs are here to stay. All one can do in any situation is pass on guidance and information... but you have to wait until people are willing to listen.

Well, via our Capacity Purchase Agreement, CAL can pull 25% of our flying and give it to the lowest bidder about every three years. So in short, if that continues to happen (read when that happens), if we find no one else to fly for ExpressJet will slowly cease to exist. We all know what happens when a "regional" tried to start its own brand as a low cost carrier, so that option is out.

thowe21,

I will say this in the most respectful way possible. That mentality of "pilots have no say" is exactly why this profession is going down the tubes. You are basically saying that you will show up and fly regardless of what mgmt pays you. YOU DO HAVE A SAY every time you put on that uniform and get on the airplane.

captjns is absolutely right, the education of this serious dilemma starts with the prospective newhires. But it also rests with us to stand up. This is why I consider Gojet pilots just as much scabs as Freedom pilots and any pilot that crosses a picket line. Just because you dont cross a picket line doesn't mean that you arent undercutting another pilot for his job and putting people on the street.

The only reason GoJets and Freedom pilots want union representation now is so that they can protect the jobs they have manipulated away from others and slithered into.

If I had my perfect world, ALL current and prospective airline pilots would have to be a member of a union before getting hired. Think about how this business and profession would be different if ALL OF US said "enough" and refused to work for these people and their concessions. Railway labor act be damned.

To just walk away and KNOW that there weren't people waiting in lines down and around the corner to fill your seat for less money would feel awesome.

To Know that you have thousands of pilots with enough dignity and respect for themselves and others that they wouldn't be so hypocritical as to do anything to fly a plane.

To have a unified and unbreakable power that the executives and managers of these companies would have to actually compensate us appropriately and actually manage the airline's money.

Think about how good that would feel to have a career that was rewarding again. To have a career that you came to work and earned good money and benefits while also earning the respect of standing tall for yourself and others in a hard fight for what you believe is right.

Now think about how easily manipulated we have become and how molded into the corporate mindset we have allowed ourselves to be.

Think about the smile on your executives faces when you sign on the dotted line that ensures you less money and benefits for you and your families while they GO TO THE BANK AND CASH A 7 FIGURE CHECK!

But sadly, this dreamworld will never happen unless each and every pilot looks in the mirror and realizes that they are not just looking at themselves, but that the reflection they see is that of tens of thousands of other pilots that need eachothers support to turn this race to the bottom around, and restore the pride and respect of our profession.

Unfortunately, ExpressJet doesn't own any of the leases to their planes. They own the rights to them, but CAL will impose a higher fee if XJT wants the planes to stay on property. CAL owns the leases, and therefore can farm out the flying as they see fit.

Still
 

StearmanDriver


You know that I am a huge fan, and we all know that what you speak of is true. It seems to me however that it is the young new hire that would take most of the brunt of an action as you mentioned. Union or no in the end we all are a union of one and have to act in our own best short term interest. The industry has simply too many hopefuls. You would have to convince student pilots to give up on their dream without even getting a chance at it. How are you going to ask potential new hires to fall on the sword for the betterment of those left behind? What about working pilots? Could you asses a lottery system where every third pilot has to resign in order to strengthen the ranks? From your position it is easy to make those choices. You have satisfied your dream, you have a strong resume to fall back on. Most don't. They have maybe one chance to get their career off the ground. It would be a very hard sell to convince them to rock the boat before ever starting.


Our problem isn't limited to any single company. It is national and becoming world wide in scope. If Expressjet will not do the flying for the price offered then someone else will. If an American company can't meet the cost cuts then perhaps a european company with Chinese crews would. In the end any of us has only one vote. I think we all need to look in the mirror and ask ourselves where is the industry going, and do I really want to be here in five years? Wishful thinking and strong words are reassuring but an honest look into the future might be sobering for ourselves and the next generation of pilots.

SKyHigh

As mentioned before flying is less of a career and more of a working hobby anymore. New pilots care less and less about wages since they are here primarily for the experience of being a jet pilot.

Freedom Pilots??? There are no more "freedom pilots". The original "freedom A" guys were removed from their out-of-seniority positions and returned to their original seniority at Mesa (where they are roundly despised on a daily basis).

The current freedom airlines is just an operating certificate for Mesa, same union, list, pay, and rules. I don't think that any of the original "A-listers" are still at freedom. Everybody there is just a regular ALPA guy/girl.

The Mesa pilots are still suffering the consequences of the original freedom issue, since they gave up almost everything on the last contract to kill Freedom A. Hopefully that can be corrected next year.

Yes, we can try to educate the new folks (especially the PFT and "academy grads"), but we can't reach them and they wouldn't listen anyway until they get on property and see what's going on. Ultimately we have to take control of our own industry from the top down...

1) Majors need to regain scope on RJ's (preferably anything > 50 seats)

2) Regionals need scope to prevent freedoms and GoJets...do YOU have scope? If not, you're headed for an @ss-kicking...

2) Regionals need to strive for a common "baseline" pay and work rules package...that way any competetive dynamics will be driven by operational effeciency, not whipsawing the labor.

3) Unions need to demand that new-hires have ATP mins and written.

If entry level FO's made at least $40K, competion at the entry level would go up, and we'd get smarter, more experienced new-hires who would be less likely to roll over for the company. All new hires would have ATP mins and the PFT kids could go fly microjets for $1.25/h until they have ATP mins.

rickair is right.

If you refuse to fly they go to someone else. If everyone else refuses they just for a new airline. IE blojets.

FINALLY someone with their head on straight about the Freedom A vs. Freedom B pilots. It just chaps my a$$ when the ignorance persists against the current Freedom B UNIONIZED pilots, all of whom weren't even around during the Freedom A fiasco.

The problem is simple, the solution very complicated. Basic econ, to many "qualified" pilots not enough jobs. Our only solution is to up the qualifications to fly for a regional, to slow the flow. You can preach unill you are blue if the face but no recent "grad" will turn down a job to progress his career with 90k of debt. (flight instruct for 15k or fly an erj for 15k), they understand that if they don’t take the job some boner will. So they are just as screwed as we are.
So what can we do?
1.) Require at least 1200 hrs to fly right seat 121. Better yet ATP
(This will be a start, most will have to instruct/fly cargo etc. for several years, thus some will move on to other careers. When they are qualified to fly for a regional they will be less willing to work for 15k.)
2.)Get rid of non FAA examiners.
(The feds give the toughest rides around. (ie. are not compensated for the check ride) Although I know some great examiners, most over the years have lost most of there business because of failing to many students. Instructors get offended when their student fails a ride, and as a result uses a easier examiner. When students fail check rides they get discouraged and are more likely to chose another career path.)
3.)Tighten up the money supply available for flying.
(This is already starting to happen, to many are defaulting on student loans because they cannot make the payments. Making lenders more aggressive with credit scores etc.)
Lets get united and get something done here. Any suggestions?

Here's an idea then. Take the higher minimums to the FAA or your congressman, and don't forget to include a couple of horrific crashes. Details such as the smell of burning flesh or the color of the blood stained parts helps. The governement loves to place restrictions on people. Maybe creating a safety issue out of the deal can get some mins for 121 F.O.'s. Any other idea's

XtremeF150

I disagree with most of you about PFT.

1. No training is free- you either pay with time, or with money, either way its money.
2. People who are in a hurry to get to a regional are probably older (mid twenties), moving from one career to flying and want to catch up. Or they are people that incurr debt like every other college student in the country. Now, are all other industries suffering because of college graduates with student loans? Perhaps to some degree but not enough to force wages down to 15K.
3. Doing training in 90 days as opposed to two years doesn't have crap to do with quality of a pilot.
4. Having thousands of instructors running around instead of PFT people only means instruction fees will go down, there will be more students, then more pilots and there will still be pay problems at the regionals.
5. Even if regionals established a hard minimum they're still going to lose X number of pilots to better paying jobs every month. Where's the backfill going to come from? All the CFIs who've been making heaps of money and will only leave their instructing job for a 40K regional salary?

The only solutions I see are time and growth. Either way, good luck.

People who don't do PFT have several years of aviation work experience, ie they understand crappy pay and work rules, no benefits, and the eagerness of management to exploit young people who dream of airplanes. They have had enough and will try to avoid crappy regional airlines. Right now there are several crappy airlines which are having difficulty filling new hire classes because of their reputation on the street. I have a CFI friend who is holding out for SKW, despite easy opportunities at lesser companies.

PFT's, even if they somehow know better don't have any choice, they have to work for their affiliate carrier or go back to CFI school.

Maybe if we're lucky a few thousand micro-jets will drive up the demand for pilots significantly...and 300 hour wonders will NOT be flying microjets without a babysitter, unless the operators decide to save money by not buying insurance.

I suspect you have not had a lot of professional aviation experience...no amount of training can substitute for actual experience with conflicting pressures from safety, economics, MX, WX, customers, and the employer.

To be clear, i should have qualified my statement with regards to the Freedom pilots. I was not referring to the B pilots. I appologize for the confusion.

I would say PFT is the whole problem. Part but not the whole. To me it seems the majors are in dire straights and the regionals (management) is scrambling to A. make profit from it and B. Make sure they keep a job. Regional Management is above their pilots so the "p**sing" waterfall happens to hit us smack dab on our heads. Its raining outside. We need to get John Q. I dont give a da*n Public to see whats going on and if it continues it will start to affect their own saftey. Till then I dont see how it else to start rockin the boat.

If my airline gets some of the xjet flying so be it. I cant help that. Im going to be on probation if I dont fly they let me go. They hire new people. I try to get an interview with someone else but have to explain why I was let go. Would you really hire me? I understand we have to stand up for each other but refusing flights, unless you get the pilot group to do so, is impractical.

And Im 22 please dont tell me that "mid-twenties" is old.

I'm 24, and a CFI. I still hate PFT. I also know that in the long run, you're really not helping youself because you're not only cheating others, you're cheating yourself. By working for lower wages now, you're just lowering the bar for each and every person above you on the food chain. This is the race to the bottom we all talk about.

Yeah, I paid for my ratings. The flight schools I went to were providing a service to me for the fees I paid. When you do a PFT program like Gulfstream you're not only paying for those ratings, you're then paying to train for a job (you already have your comm rating, so you're paying for additional training) which is something that only is seen in this industry. Add to that the 'wages' you're being paid while playing 121 FO and you're at a net loss for the program. In my mind, that means you're paying to work for them. Unless I'm renting the plane for my leisure, I'm being compensated for my time.

I guess I still fail to understand the point in spending that much money to get a job that won't pay the bills. Maybe I'm weird or something...

But how many people getting ready to start learning how to fly read these forums?

PFT is a topic that comes up in almost every thread. Obviously WE know its a problem. But do they? I would not have. And I would not have known I was wasting money. I would have probably gotten sold into everything. Luckily I did not. Luckily.

Pft
 

PFT,

All is fair in love and war. The same goes for aviation. What is the best way to get there? Any way you can. We all have different advantages and disadvantages in life. If you don't use everything in your power then you are cheating yourself.

Low time pilots. You know there was a time when even the majors hired pilots in the low hundreds. The FAA says that it is safe and legal to fly as an FO with as little as 190 hours. Perhaps we should argue to change the commercial to a 500 hour minimum?

Our current airline system has become pretty fool proof. Why not hire high school kids to fly them? ILS to ILS in a fully automated button monkey machine is not brain surgery. Just don't look at the flight deck as you board and you wouldn't see the teenagers in the front seat.

SkyHigh

Future
 

In the future what is to stop a company under "free skies" from deadheading foreign pilots into the country to fly regionals in the US for less than half of what the regionals pay now?

I don't know the rules on foreigner wages but we have plenty of American pilots abroad since the pay is better in UAE and they don't pay US taxes. Why couldn't a foreign company get away with paying less? Even minimum wage based on the flight hour could be a lot of money in other countries. What is there under "free skies" to stop that from happening to us?

A Russian crew on 90 day rotations could get a lot of flying done. They could possibly work for a US airline under contract by a foreign company. We could have Chinese mechanics ect... Many airlines already farm out some heavy maintenance to Mexico. Why not bring the Mexicans here?

SkyHigh

Personally, an investment of that caliber would cause me to do a little reseach on the topic. Hell, I spent a month researching where to do my CFI. Captains have minimum requirements under both 135 and 121, why not make a minimum (which is lower) for SIC? If that's too extreme, just keep educating the starry-eyed ones on these fourms. Don't come off as a crusty, angry furloughee who blames everybody under the sun for their company's ****-poor management. Posts of this nature don't achieve anything positive for you, or the newbies who we're trying to mentor/advise/whatever you want to call getting them on our side. Unity goes a long way my friends. Stop fighting to win the battle and fight to win the war.

And before you PFTers start trying to flame me, I'm a low time guy too. I just want to make more as a pilot than a Burger King manager(I don't think that's too much to ask). Paying off big debt on regional FO pay isn't going to get anybody anywhere. Respect your fellow pilots, respect yourselves and realize that it takes a lot of training to do this job, you should be paid accordingly. Greyhound drivers carry fewer people, in equipment that requires little training (a CDL isn't hard to get) and have a much higher fatality rate than any regional pilot and yet they're making more. Think about it.

So since it seems the PFTers are the only ones who take the low wage regional F/O jobs, what did 'yall start at when YOU first started at the regionals? From what I have seen, there are 3000TT cats who were CFI's and got ratings at FBO's vying for the same low wage F/O spots as the 300TT PFTers.....so, the argument is confusing.

pilotpip, right on man.
We have to protect industry, if we do nothing, well we can all see the affects of that. Doctors know this, they have taken the steps to limit the supply, thus keeping a relatively high salary.

Im not trying to say that at 300 hours you cant fly an RJ, although with many, it is a serious safety issue. The main point is to slow the supply.

For example look at our beloved mesa. They hire some in the 300 hr range, so if you have a chance to fly turbine 121 time at 300 hours are your going to turn that down to instruct? (you would be stupid not to) So how does this affect the industry? Well now all the other regional have to compete with mesa who has pilots willing to earn 13k a year (Getting jet time Vs 172 time). So to stay competitive they have to ask for concessions from the labor groups, thus driving down our wadges. So who do we blame? The new 300 hr fo trying to advance his career as fast as possible, and has no idea what he is doing. Or management trying to take every advantage to grow the company and increase the stock price so they can cash out? People will generally do what’s in their best interest even if it screws there bro. We can’t expect to talk any one out of taking a job at low time, although they should be educated. If we have no laws in place nothing will change. Lets get the FAA in on this one they will get it done if they believe there are safety issues.
Lets get united my friends.

my 2 cents,

Aviation industry sucks - Get out now! Did you know that NYPD is hiring and they AVERAGE 75k a in 5th yr and have a pension (that will be there). FDNY make 50k+ with pension. Teachers can get paid up to 100k in NYS with pension (that will be there). Accountants break 100k all the time, Finance is doing great you can get started at about 45k and see 100k+ real fast (few of my friends). Thomas delivery routes pay 70-80k (100 with overtime -one of my friends). Go get a job with the border patrol (they're looking for people). Work for CIA, FBI, Contractor, plumber, electrician, Bla bla bla. Just get your head out of the clouds and take a look at LIFE! You don't have to take this crap. Fly on the side (to actually enjoy flying)-Instruct on the side. You gotta realize that no matter what for every pilot that walks away 100000 suckers are willing to fill his seat - and for less. Its getting nothing but easier and quicker to fly airliners and you dont have to know much or have many skills (anymore) its all automated - no decision making or anything -just show up.
So that means that pilots have less and less power - especially since we are always (naturally) fighting each other. But - you don't have to listen to me - what do I know - im just a guy that decided, for all my hard work, deserves better than 20-30k on and off (furloughs), sleeping in strange places all the time...without a pension. and on top of that what if i loose my medical? - BS

Dont mean to be negative - just trying to do my good deed for the day!
Look for a job that is in demand, A charter manager i knew once said to me -"pilots are a dime a dozen" Never has that statement been more profound to me until I was actually an airline pilot.

Funny, that kind of sound like a retired legacy captain I knew, he had only about 1000 hours and no other flying experience when he was hired. If anyting, it's gettin harder to become a pilot, at least a major airline pilot. I predict that if things don't get better at the airlines corporate flying will explode, if it hasn't already. What's the deal with you regional pilots? What you want to make 100K a year flying a CRJ? The captains make around 60-70K for the main regionals, that's great considering most are under or around 30 years of age.

Doen't be a ***** Go with the fractionals. Former Indepedence Air Pilot.

I dont need to make 100k at a regional. Just enough that I can afford to live with out shopping at the dollar store.

BURflyer ?
I have some friends selling cell phones making 80k+ a year, others that work just during the summer selling security systems and making 100k+ plus 30k each year as a car allowance. Younger bro making 100k+ construction management, with no college education. Others doing real-estate 100k+! Not sure why you think 60k a year is great money? Cannot afford a house in Cali on that. Don’t sell yourself short. We are worth at least 100k a year! Fo's should start at nothing less than 40k first year. Im not sure where people are getting this mentality (like the flight instructor who only charges for flight time, selling himself short).
Yes flying is becoming easier. But you had to get certified and are required in the right seat, just for that fact you should be making more.
Why do Real-estate agents make bank, because of there licence, not that much to it.

Appologies,

It appears I was confusing PFT for programs like ATP, RAA, UND, ERAU- apparently you all are talking about that Gulfstream-type deal. That's a slightly different bag.

As a low timer, I will never claim to be a better pilot than someone with more time (or less) unless I've flown with them. Hours TEND to indicate that 1. a person has survived this long so he must be safe 2. experience, hence knowledge, but some of the worst pilots I've flown with were high-time codgers that got sloppy in their old age. Many of my classmates from college were flying F-16s/A-10s with 300hrs, and they are doing a little more than the average RJ pilot, so 300 hours must not mean as little as people think.

Not that I advocate hiring 300hr pilots at regionals but there are some good ones out there.

"Many of my classmates from college were flying F-16s/A-10s with 300hrs, and they are doing a little more than the average RJ pilot, so 300 hours must not mean as little as people think"

No kidding?

And I had such a high opinion of Air Force trained pilots...what WAS I thinking....

I still would love one of these "its the PFTers that bring down the industry" and advocate not taking an offered F/O position to really come up with a better argument. You talk of solidarity and turning down a job to "benefit the industry as a whole". So Mr. 34 year old who is now entering the airline industry with 2 kids, a wife, a mortgage and cart payments (and beleive me there are a ton of them in PFT programs because yes, YOU are not the only one who had a dream of flying) is supposed to look an airline HR person in the eye, and in the interest of appeasing some bitter crumudgeons who can't see past their own anger and bitterness to focus on the REAL problem (management), turn down the job they've always wanted because it doesn't pay like a lawyer and see his family suffer because of it.
You say "get out and do something else"....well why don't you tell a West Virginia coal miner who works in an environment that most people would say "get out, do something else!" that and see the reaction. he doesn't because he knows nothing else, wouldn't be happy doing something else and his small protest if he did leave would be largely overshadowed by the next guy willing to step in and he KNOWS this.
STOP blaming the pilots and start getting on the case of the suits who are REALLy the ones driving this industry into the toilet. Oh but I guess the easiest target and the ones who won't put up too much of an argument because they are too scared are the new pilots so lets pick on them because picking a fight with the bigwigs might prove too much of a real fight and we just don't REALLy want to stand out as the trailblazer.

Civilian PFT people have one guaranteed quality: a source of cash. Which unfortunately has no corelation to innate flying ability.

Military guys are handpicked and rigorously trained. There is nothing remotely comparable between military training and PFT flight schools. Ask your buddies, they know.

Industry cycles
 

Every industry has a cycle. Aviation has been around for a long time now. Most of the bugs have been worked out of the system. Virtually anyone with the ability to learn can pilot a modern airliner. Very little skill or knowledge is really required. The pax cant tell in back if they nearly met their maker or not. They can only judge our performance by the touchdown that we make.

Sadly for us our profession is in high demand. People use to do the job for money now we are scorned as blasphemous for declaring our expectations to actually earn a livable wage doing it. It's not the suits fault either. They are simply trying to do the best for their company during difficult times. We can all pound our fists and declare that we are worth more but the truth is that we are only a business commodity and are only worth what the market demands. What it all boils down to is your own personal decision on how much you will give in order to keep your dream alive. I think it was BURflier who wisely mentioned on another thread that expecting to have a family life and fly was impractical.

These are the kinds of choices that will be expected increasingly as time goes on. In the past year real estate has gone up by almost 50% in some urban areas. That means that as a regional captain who earns 60K you would never be able to afford even a simple home in most cities. If that fact doesn't hit home with most of you then I don't know what else will. The bottom line is that aviation has descended from a truly great profession into something akin to the life of a starving artist. Set your expectations appropriately.

SkyHigh

Samc,

Talking about schools like UND, and Riddle under the same breath as RAA and Delta Academy isn't right (unless you're speaking of the now-defunct CAPT program). These are accredited universities that happen to have aviation programs. There are many of them out there. Every state has at least 1 aviation program in their university system. Many of these programs are established and regarded highly in the industry. UND and ER get a lot of flak because they're the ones that are using shiny ads and are also used by manufacturers (when UND needed a new fleet, they choose piper, and so should you). That and for whatever reason many recent grads think they're owed something becuase they went to one of the two. I don't know where this comes from. I know a number of people who graduated from both in the 80s and 90s and don't share this feeling of being owed.

More clarification on why I don't like PFT:

Ok, when you do PFT, you are paying for an interview, you're getting the back door in. You already paid much more than market value for your training, and you did this because it was the easy way. You're more than likely willing to take less pay. Even if you're not, you're going to get a lower offer because you're less experienced. Lowest bidder (because they have lower labor costs) gets the contract, better paying companies get the ax. Everybody looses, they either get furloughed or are making less because their union took a pay cut to stay competative.

Situation 2: Pseudo airlines (GJ and Newco) are started to circumvent scope clauses. They fly bigger jets which not only kills off flying for the major, which kills jobs there, which stalls the guys at the regional from moving up, which causes you to sit in the right seat longer (making less than if you upgraded). Everybody ends up with lower pay in the long run.

The reason I say we need to unite is simple. Pilots are back-stabbing SOBs. For every guy out there that is willing to take a stand for better pay, there are three that are willing to fly the airplane for less, or in some cases, pay to fly it. How does that help you? It may get you 121 experience faster, but it's just another step in the race to the bottom. By lowering yourself to that level you're lowering the pay that others will make to remain competative, and you're lowering the amout of income you'll recieve in the long run because of this, and the slowed career advancement it causes.

And yes, SkyHigh is right about this industry being cyclical. It's amazing that these morons that are running these companies into the ground don't see the writing on the wall. In some cases the same airline has seen similiar situations 3 and 4 times in the last 20 years yet they don't learn their lessons.

Last, The Airforce is a totally different beast all together. For staters, the training is very rigorous and if you don't make it, you're out. Second, they spend every waking second of every day learning these aircraft, working in sims, and studying the applicable systems and theory, and dedicated to nothing but flying that airplane. They may only have 300 hours total, but there are thousands of hours already devoted to simulation and systems before they fly that aircraft. Also, these men and women are defending my right to say what I want on here and keeping my family free. Don't compare them to somebody who just shelled out 30k to fly a jet. I have way too much respect and admiration for our soldiers to even consider them in the same book, let alone the same sentence as PFTers.

My question is, if a lot of pilots feel like they're underpaid and that low time pilots are causing problems, etc., why the hell would any of you pilots not strike and take down a major airline or two to prove to the other airlines that pilots are not willing to take concessions anymore because management fuxed up! The truth is, people who are flying for an airline like their pay checks (however big or small), and no one seem to have the balls to say, "screw the pay check, let's take them down!" So as long as pilots don't take a stand and bring down a big one, nothing is going to change for the better.

Just look at what happened at NWA. The pilots took yet another pay cut. You think it's going to be different at Delta? I think not. Drop the retarded kids off at the pool or get off the crapper. All this talk isn't going to get anyone anywhere. It's time people talk about getting pilots to take action, not point fingers at management, low time pilots, each other, etc. Take down a major and you'll see pilot life improve over night.

ALCON,


Please don't misunderstand my statement about military pilots. 1. I'm in the military 2. I directly support military pilots every day 3. I used to fly in the AF. Unfortunately, I can no longer continue because I have an eye condition which has caused my cornea to thin by 6 microns in 8 years (despite 20/17 vision, its not waiverable). Hence I'm stuck sending emails and giving briefings. But, I'm a 26 y/o that entered the AF to fly and am willing to give up my 60K a year to fly for a lot less. Do I think I should be on 15K for 5 years? No. Do I think I have to prove myself and work for a salary commensurate with my experience? Yes.

I've now done a job I don't like. I love the people I work with, and I really love the people I work for but I no longer enjoy the work I do. So, I've got three choices
1. Keep doing it for 14 years and retire.
2. Tell my wife she can't go to school on our savings while I instruct for three years.
3. Got to ATP, get my civilian ratings. Seek and obtain a job at a regional, prove myself and earn a remotely respectable living, doing what I like.

Option #3 wins every time I analyze the situation. And I'll stay in the reserves to supplement my income and get a feeling of service everyday. One thing I can recommend to anyone else who wants to serve and earn decent money doing so.

Good luck to us all. It appears we need it.

I will spell check next time...