Good News for the Pinnacle Pilots?
 

so here is my question. i wasn't able to listen to the call last night but a friend of mine said that our next mediated negotiating session is going to be held in washington dc, with a member of the NMB. he seemed pretty excited about it because that means we are actually going to be with the people who can release us if things dont work out good. Rumor has it that the reason we are going there is because we had already ta'd the scheduling part of the new contract, and at the last moment the company threw it out and it really mad the mediator mad. pretty much saying once something is ta'd its bad faith bargaining to go back and start changing things. what do you all think. is this the news we have been waiting for, or is this just more fluff and the should hold the meetings in SGF again.

How long has Pinnacle been in negotiations? That sounds like bargaining in bad faith to me. 9 hours and the GM workers got what they wanted. I hope the pilots do get released. Good luck to them.

Hold your breath too long and you will die.... So probably not a good idea to do it.... I hope for all Pinnacle pilots that it is that great thing you all have been waiting for....

jan of 05 is when the negotiations started. became amendable in may of 05

Good luck to you all...

I was curious how long it would take for someone to put an update up... I was just going to lay low on it for once- no sense in getting everyone's hopes up...


That being said this is a step TOWARDS a TA.

Don't put too much faith, or any faith in the NMB for that matter. They will not release you under this administration. You will only get a contract if the company wants to give you one, period.

Just a little tidbit from somebody who lived through this crap for 5 years. If the person who will be sitting in on your negotiations is who I think she is, she is afraid to do her job. So don't count on anything happening.

Nah, you'll pass out first.

So true, so true.... unless you are under water....

I agree with sweptback. I do not think we will be released this year. Maby next year depending on who gets elected. If McCain is in office, we (all pilots) are screwed because he is anti-pilot. Sorry to get political, but there is more hanging on this election than ever before.

That would be ironic, since Big John is, of course, an ex-Naval aviator.:rolleyes:

Bush was an ex-ANG aviator. Nobody would accuse him of being pro-pilot. Your point?

Look at the history of what bills McCain has introduced in the Senate -- one of which would strip our right to strike and commit the pilot groups to baseball-style arbitration after a short negotiation period. If you think arbitration is fair, talk to an Alaska pilot.

Sorry to say but your brothers over at ASA made contract negotiations drag out for over 5 years. So why would Pinnacle mgmt or the nmb think they need to do anything faster? You have a few years left, I would be pleasantly surprised if anything happened before 2011.

GM workers can also walk off the job and bring the lines to a screeching halt any time they wish. It's time to repeal the RLA.

Read McCain's 2001 letter regarding pilots. If you think he's pro-pilot or for that matter, pro-labor you have another thing coming. Best part, his son is an airline pilot.

Vacation time... Lets get what we're worth!

WHEN do the next negotiations take place?

Aug. 25 in DC.

Mesaba was released in 2004 during the Bush administration. PCL mgmt will not settle until they HAVE TO. Nothing new here... same old dirty tactics.

If McCain is anti-pilot it would surprise me. The example of him being a naval aviator aside, I think it would cause some family tensions that I don't think have happened. His son is, and has been for a very long time, an airline pilot. He is a very senior FO, by choice because he likes his schedule and QOL, with a Major. I have known him for more than half my life and can say that he is very supportive of his father's campaign. I am honestly not sure I have heard him speak negative, and we do talk aviation considering our careers.

Care to link us? I tried doing a quick Google search but couldn't find anything.

STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHN McCAIN
CHAIRMAN SENATE COMMITTEE ON
COMMERCE, SCIENCE AND TRANSPORTATION
FULL COMMITTEE HEARING
ON THE STATUS OF LABOR ISSUES IN THE AVIATION INDUSTRY
APRIL 25, 2001


"We are all aware of the numerous problems facing the aviation industry.
Congestion, delays, and modernization of air traffic control are all issues
that seem to rise to the forefront to be addressed again and again. This
Committee, industry, the regulatory agencies and others have redoubled their
efforts to address these serious problems.

Recently, however, a new problem has risen, creating further havoc in our
system. While labor negotiations in the airline industry have been ongoing
for years, things have begun to worsen. The trend towards larger airlines
has given unions greater leverage which appears to have contributed to a
mind set that views any work stoppage as legitimate. Normally even
acrimonious labor negotiations are a part of the negotiating process with
both sides using what leverage is available to them to reach the best deal.
However, times have changed; these acrimonious negotiations now adversely
affect the American people.

Let me say from the outset that I have no problem with the right to strike.
Strikes are a legal remedy available under applicable labor statutes.
Recently, however, courts have found more and more that labor unions in the
airline industry have engaged in concerted illegal job actions. These
courts have issued temporary restraining orders and injunctions prohibiting
such actions. In recent months, United, American, Northwest, and Delta have
obtained court ordered relief from these alleged illegal job actions. In
American's case, the court fined American's pilots over $45 million for not
adhering to the injunction.

These actions have affected millions of consumers. Middle America has been
stranded time and time again as a result of this illegal union activity.
According to published reports, last year, United cancelled over 23,000
flights as a result of its pilots' refusal to fly overtime, destroying
carefully planned vacations and business trips. Northwest and Delta
cancelled thousands of flights preemptively over the holiday seasons to
combat alleged mechanic slowdowns and failure to fly overtime by pilots,
respectively. The pilots' sickout at American in 1999 left thousands of
people stranded, some of which have banded together to sue the pilots for
damages.

In this day and age, a job action at a major airline can have a catastrophic
effect on the aviation system and the consumer. The rest of the system
would have a difficult time absorbing the excess passengers and the system
could come to a standstill. While management and labor are affected by
this, both parties have contingencies planned in the event of a job action.
The consumer is the one most affected by this increase in labor actions. It
is family flying across country for their vacation, the daughter coming home
from college, and the son going to visit a sick parent who can not reach
their destinations because the unions have taken matters into their own
hands. In the case of pilots, these are people who, according to industry,
on average make $140,000 while working less than 80 hours a month. At the
same time, according to the most recent data in 1999,the average per capita
income was $21,281.

The last two pilot contract negotiations, United and Delta, both of which
had alleged job actions with far reaching effects on the consumer, resulted
in a pay scale where, by the end of the contract, the senior pilots will
make over $280,000 in base pay with the ability to make one-third more for
voluntarily flying 25 more hours a month. Not only should the consumer not
have to suffer as a result of this avarice, but many analysts are concerned
that with labor costs rising so high, airlines will not be able to survive
economically or will at least put themselves in a hole for years to come.
Labor costs for an airline are now projected to be over 33% of its fixed
costs.

Many people argue that management has a choice, but in reality, the choice
is to give in to higher salary demands that a company may not be able to
afford or face a debilitating strike that may cripple the airline and force
it out of business. I don't believe that anyone would argue that is a
choice.

We have convened this hearing to look at these issues. Although this
subject is one that can be very divisive along party lines, I have received
complaints from both sides of the aisle about the current situation. I
welcome the witnesses today and look forward to a lively and spirited
debate."

Granted this speech is from 2001. But this goes to show that McCain already thinks pilots salaries are bloated and we only work 80 hours a month. Certainly is not going to help us with our negotiations.

All other political issues aside, I don't think anyone can argue that an Obama NMB would be less friendly to us than a McCain NMB.

One has to understand that people like Bush and McCain did not become pilots because they loved aviation...they became pilots because it was the "safest" option to avoid getting drafted for more-hazardous gound combat duty (vice going to Canada, so yeah, you can Clinton-bash here if you want). So don't go thinking McCain has some sort of camaraderie with the ranks of airline pilots just because he's got some turbine PIC in the military. This is about labor vs. corporations in a general sense, and everyone knows which party is more friendly to organized labor!

While I normally don't get involved in political debates and also don't believe that McCain's aviation background makes him airline pilot friendy I do find this statement presumptuous. I will not speak for Bush, but I don't believe McCain (son of a Navy Admiral) became a pilot to "avoid ground combat duty"....Naval Academy graduate during peacetime, volunteered for carrier based combat missions in Vietnam, refused an offer of repatriation that kept him a POW for an additional 5 years.....maybe its just me, but that sure doesn't say I can't handle the possibility of hazardous duty to me.....
With that said, none of this makes him any more likely to release PNCL to strike, but he did serve his country and for that should be respected whether he is the best choice for our personal interests or not.

W Bush...different story

"While I normally don't get involved in political debates..."

Actually, if that's what this is going to become, then the thread will get locked. See TOS:

"There are currently NO forums that provide a venue for discussing politics or religion."

Jesus even a Presidential candidate is just as stupid as ma and pa kettle when it comes to the whole "pilots make $100K a year and never have to work"

OK...back on topic...SHOW ME THE MONEY!

Ha ha. J/K.

Absolutely!!!! I'm betting we will have to strike to get our money. But if we strike, the company will fold. Either way, STFD.

The reality is that sometimes topics in professional aviation and politics go hand in hand.

while I completely agree with you, better be careful. The thread might get locked. Unfortunetly, this business involves politics and we should be able to discuss these issues.

THE absolute worst possibility for PNCL pilots:
NW/Delta desperately want to rid themselves of the 50 seaters so they tell pncl mgmt to stall until we strike. We strike...both contracts are now voided and many 50 seat routes cut out completely, a lot of flying x-fered to the other 18 regionals in the delta/nw system :rolleyes: PLUS the mgmt team secures addt. profitable flying from Delta for colgan's Q-400's.
Just my most nightmarish conclusion I can come up with at the moment.

that is a bad scenario. that would mean that nwa would lose over 30% of their lift if they got rid of all of our 200's that quick. i honestly think that pinnacle will be one of the last operators of 200's. we have the newest fleet of them and i am thinking they will keep them around for a while longer, even with all the inefficiency talk.

We would also have to strike for either 10 or 14 days before the contracts become a factor. At that point PNCL corp would be bankrupt without the NWA flying since its by far the vast majority of the revenue stream. I have my own thoughts on "why" and "how" which is why I told folks to by the stock for the second time around... I told to buy around $3... its been a few weeks and closed yesterday over $6.. Fall of 06 I said the same thing on the threat of "losing NWA flying if we don't sign the last, best, final offer" and the stock went from $6 to $20. Your welcome!

Don't worry about things outside your control. Stay unified, fly by the book, and trust the MEC. The MEC and PNCL mgmt both are not trying to run this company in the ground- they just threaten it to find a "amicable" middle point. I am thinking the meetings will end up with a TA in time- whether that's at the end of this month or next month, year, etc. Everyone who works at PNCL knew the payrates and workrules when they showed up- sure we wanted/expected a contract but in the back of our heads we all knew the other possibility that we are currently living. In Scott's words from May "I am P*ssed"...... MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME!

And his son is an AA pilot!

not saying you are wrong, but they may have not had a choice. My dad joined the Navy at the same time as McCain, had an engineering degree and wanted some type of engineering job. They told him, "you are going to be a pilot because with Vietnam we are running short on pilots" basically.

Another thing is... our planes go out ontime for the most part everyday.
Im getting sick and tired of hearing Capts say... hurry up close the door when we dont have a cargo slip or something else that is somewhat needed.
Why do people feel the need here to break our backs for a company that does not care one bit about us????????

I think we need to take a lesson from our ASA brothers

I just hope things can get resolved in DC...though I'm not holding my breath.

Just remember that 9E is the best on time and cheapest operator of 50 seat jets out there, they won't just get rid of us. We deserve a contract! Don't get scared by managements threats. The night is always darkest just before dawn.

New as in what? Comair's birds are probably only on average 8 years old. Pinnacle's are on average maybe 4 years old. Not much of a difference.

We were only released because XJ managment enjoined us in the request to be released. Still not sure what the real reason was but had they not enjoined us we would still be in negotiations. The desert AVRO's came back for a little while but that was it for a while.