Yes, airlines pay what they do because they can. But why can they?

The US and europe have some cultural differences. In the US we tend to be dreamers, and with the advent of the entitlement kids we have a group of dreamers who think they are guaranteed or entitled to their dreams. Europeans are more realistic or fatalistic.

In europe, many pilots are hired ab initio by airlines and provided with all training...this is obviously very competetive and not available to any but the best candidates. Those that don't get accepted just say "oh well" and go make a living elsewhere...they know that the financial realities of paying for your own training make no sense, especially since their costs are far higher.

A few wealthy europeans have dad pay for it. A few poor europeans who can't shake the dream usually come to the US for cheaper training and GA job opportunities...naturally they end up working at US regionals :rolleyes:

In the US we are so set on our dreams that we ignore inconvenient truths such as declining major pay/QOL, declining advancement opportunities, and oil uncertainty.

Yep, bingo... When one small group (cough...TSA) says "No, pay us more", management knows they don't have to go far to find someone who will do it for less (cough...Gojets)...

It's not going to get better until we start backing one another up. (And I really don't see that happening anytime soon).

Without getting too far into politics, and disregarding all other issues floating around in our wonderful country:

The US government has been strongly on the side of big business, and fairly strongly anti-union and anti-labor, since the 80's. Corporations have been able to turn policy and law in their favor, eliminating much of the leverage previously given to grass-roots workers. If you vote against labor, you vote against yourself.

This is not the case in Europe. Most Europeans agree that professionals in safety-sensitive industries should not need to worry about how to feed their families or pay the doctor's bills. Therefore, valued workers are paid fair wages.

It's really very simple. We are our own worst enemies.

Cue reactionary tirades....

What difference would it make if he said no? All the training/money that went into getting there would just go out the window and it wouldnt change a thing.

Now if Joachim said no, you said no, I said no, this whole board said no, the other aviation boards said no, all of ALPA said no, your entire REGIONAL and everyone applying to it said no... then you got something.

So how can we educate the general public about the conditions and educate aspiring pilots in the realities of the industry? How can we unite the pilot-group to be as powerfull as possible? I know many of you guys are very knowledgable, so come up with your idea!



I tell every wannabe who asks to get another education first. For 3 reasons: It provides a fallback plan should the pilot-thing not work out, He/she will expect more from life and when the time comes to make the decision whether or not to become a pilot the person will possibly be more mature in his/her decision.

I allso try to educate the general public in how little education is legally required to become a pilot and how much they make. I think it would make a great difference if the public knew our situation and just imagine if 121 mins were ATP. We would'nt be a dime a dosen anymore.

Also true. The Europeans have a more socialist stance which is usually better for workers (like pilots and garbage collectors), but not so good for individual entrepanuers or inovators like Microsoft or Boeing.

well by now everybody who tought free capitalism without regulation was the way to go..we saw this week what free capitalism can do for you...now we all have to bail out this private companies because there where nobody regualting or checking what they were doing...what we need is some kind of regulation and say to the unions,congress and the public what we Need and Want to keep doing this job. We (pilot groups) need to be united as a hole.this is the time to standup and say enough.

I agree papa-charlie, and i think this form is a powerfull tool. How have other worker-groups acheived a strong position?

I dont know but I can see a precious oportunity here to standup and demand better working conditions and make alot of noise by exposing to the media, public and congress the working and salaries conditions pilots are getting pay to fly them around the country.

sounds good on paper. But while the flying public says they value safety, that they want their pilots rested, good morale etc., in the long run, all they care about is flying LAX to Cleveland for $69 one way, and anything that will increase that ticket price to $87, they are against (beter pilot work rules, rest requirements etc.) Airline A could put 4 airplanes into the ground in a year, and charge $100 LGA-LAS, and airline B with an impeccable safety record could charge $300 for the same flight. Airline A will be the one with 100% load factor. Look how many passengers complain and blame the airlines and/or pilots when we can't fly after already having a 16 hour day, or when a blizzard shuts down an airport...we are still the ones to blame.