[quote=TonyWilliams;485243]

Oral started like this:

1. How long is the temporary airman certificate good for? I said 90 days, answer 120 (I think a temp aircraft registration is 90) WRONG

2. If you lost the temp certificate, what do you need from the company? I said some kind of letter or copy of certificate. WRONG, illegal to copy temp certificate, need exemption 5585.

3. If you flew 8 hours, what is normal rest? I said 9. WRONG. It's 10, 'cuz the rule is less than OR EQUAL TO 8 hours equals 10. 9 hour rest is for LESS THAN 8 hours.

4. What does the F stand for in ALSF-2 and the R in MALSR? I had no frigging idea. WRONG (flashing and runway)

5. When you get to DH on the ILS, and see the approach lights, how low can you descend? Me, "100 AGL". Ok, you see the red terminating bar, how low? I said continue the descent (word for word out of the reg). He says no, it's 50 feet (basically the landing threshold crossing height) until you see the runway lights/markings (except centerline lights).
Not sure I still buy off on that. Surely, you can't land, but I've never seen any altitude restriction, nor is there a callout for that, or training on that.


I fail to understand how the ability to recite answers to obscure questions like a trained ape will guarantee the ability to be a successful pilot/captain. If a person is an unsafe/arrogant jackass or just plain can't do the job, then that is a different story. The way I see it, the point of the above exercise is just to boost someone's ego (at the expense of someone else). In the ATC world, most veteran controllers that I know of would just tell this pompous examiner to "go pi$$ up a rope." Does this mean that they are less safe or competent?! Don't get me wrong, as ATC certainly has its share of pr!cks and the training could last a long time (especially at the busier facilities), but the process was normally when the trainee acquired a certain number of hours and his/her trainers thought that they were ready the supervisor gave them a checkride (which was usually just a formality). And I don't think that the system is any less safe as a result. However, when a person is so uptight because they are afraid to make a mistake (e.g. in these part 121 checkrides), then in my opinion they are less effective and safety is degraded as a result.

One interesting question that has not been mentioned with respect to up or out is medical certification. Some pilots are able to hold a second class FAA medical, but not a first class. Would those airlines with a forced upgrade such as AA terminate this pilot? If so, would the pilot have any recourse under the Americans with Disabilities Act?

Joe

Of course not. Any US airline would allow someone who can only hold a second class to remain an FO. They would lose their butt on THAT lawsuit...

Actually, TW was an RJ guy upgrading/transitioning to the prop.

Sigh.

Just a friendly reminder to everyone to keep the conversation on track. This is an interesting topic and one that needs to be discussed, BUT please do so without personal attacks or inflammatory statements. Trust me, it can be done. I decline to delete any offensive posts nor give out infractions for now; however, I can easily change my mind after I've had some lunch. In the meantime, keep your nose clean or I'm going to wipe it for you with sandpaper.

To me, sounds like a bunch of the examiners questions were BS. There is stuff that you have to know, and there is stuff that you should look up versus relying on your memory.
As an example, think of the various MEL situations we have all encountered, that is something I take the time to look up in the manual even if I've had that exact same MEL item in the recent past.

What the F stands for-give me a FB? Exact hours of rest in a given situation, that's why they write the rules down for me to take 10 minutes out of my legal rest period and look it up. How low can you go-that one you've got to know. 50' could maybe, maybe, be a min for a Cat III (Cat I Red Terminating bars should be able to continue down and land provided the rwy environment remains in sight)

Still, have to bust you on the whole judgement thing.
Here's a guy who hooks you on the Oral scheduled to give you a sim first thing in the morning, might be a two day food poisoning for me if I'd been in that situation. Absolutely no way I would subject myself to an examiner who's judgment is questionable.
Definitely no way I would put myself in that situation with no sleep. Wouldn't hop in the jet fatigued, why would I do it in the sim.

Absolutely no way of knowing how ALPA would have changed the environment, so as Joey would say, that point is Mooo.
One of the bros did bust his oral in a similar situation (w/ ALPA as the union), right seat jurassic jet to Capt of a glass cockpit....and in his case, the result was a couple of days off followed by a do-over of the Oral. And his examiner was asking some off the wall questions as well....so, the examiner also wound up with some additional training and attitude adjustment.

When did you become a mod? How come I'm not a mod? (that'll be the day...) :D

They both have their hard issues. I don't know about the EMB-120, but I did fly the SAAB2000 for a few years in Europe. Now I fly the CRJ-200. The CRJ-200 is a harder airplane to fly.

Quote:

1. How long is the temporary airman certificate good for? I said 90 days, answer 120 (I think a temp aircraft registration is 90) WRONG

2. If you lost the temp certificate, what do you need from the company? I said some kind of letter or copy of certificate. WRONG, illegal to copy temp certificate, need exemption 5585.

3. If you flew 8 hours, what is normal rest? I said 9. WRONG. It's 10, 'cuz the rule is less than OR EQUAL TO 8 hours equals 10. 9 hour rest is for LESS THAN 8 hours.

4. What does the F stand for in ALSF-2 and the R in MALSR? I had no frigging idea. WRONG (flashing and runway)

5. When you get to DH on the ILS, and see the approach lights, how low can you descend? Me, "100 AGL". Ok, you see the red terminating bar, how low? I said continue the descent (word for word out of the reg). He says no, it's 50 feet (basically the landing threshold crossing height) until you see the runway lights/markings (except centerline lights).
Not sure I still buy off on that. Surely, you can't land, but I've never seen any altitude restriction, nor is there a callout for that, or training on that.

.....

I didn't sleep that night at all; I went over every memory thing I could think of that he would ask in the sim (it would be the same examiner that just failed me on the sim). At 6am, sure enough, right off the bat, he asked how to check the parking brake light. I had no idea. I looked after the fact, and could not find any place in any of the manuals that tells you it's push to test. (by the way, it says right on the lens "push to test"... one of those things that familiarity with the plane would have helped).End Quote



Since when are we airmen required to memorize everything?? Certainly questions 1 and 2 were fair game as you would have gotten a temp certificate. Questions 1, 2, and 4, your correct answer should have been, "Just a moment, I'll look that up." followed by you pulling out the FAR/AIM, flipping to the page, and reading him the answer. No one is capable of memorizing EVERYTHING especially the minutiae: that is why we have printed manuals, FARs, OPS Spec, etc. Perhaps he was testing to see if you COULD find those things.

IMHO, #3 (rest requirements) is something that needs to be memorized: we deal with that every day. it is rediculas that 7:59:59 requires one hour less than 8:00:00, but that is how the law reads. ((If not memorized, tab page 121.471.))

#5 MUST be memorized: no time to look that up in the plane. If you don't "buy" (and based on what you quoted, you SHOULDN'T) what he said, then go to 91.175 (and any part of your ops spec aplicable) and look it up.

1, 2, 4, and 5 could get you violated (5 could ball up a plane).

As for the push-to-test question, not knowing could cause a delay or cancellation.



If you take this as butsing your chops, then I have come on too strongly. Sorry. I have sat on both sides of the table during a busted checkride, and know how it feels. But all those were valid questions.

Study hard, use your references, and GOOD LUCK NEXT TIME!!!

BTW, one more thing....

Based on the questions asked I am inclined to think that someone was out to get TW off property there. Those are not irrelevant questions in the grand scheme of things, but how many of us could have successfully answered them? Those are trivia questions, not really relevant to a type-rating.

I am not saying they are not things we should know, but maybe those are better left to a place like recurrent ground school and the like.

All I can say about question #4 is wow. Why would any examiner ever want to ask that question? Who really cares what the letters stand for in MALSR and ALSF-2? As long as you know that when you break out of the clouds, you are looking for app lights. TW you should have asked him to draw you a full color picture of these app light systems. Sounds like a UND Avit 222 stage check question.

Been thinking about this today too. It is possible that your management read this website. I know our CP does. And for a guy who uses you actual name (im guessing) as you user name you are just setting yourself up! If they were out to get him, could have had something to do with what is posted on this site whether good or bad. Just a thought... I repeat JUST A THOUGHT.. !!!

Embraer, he was more of a company-man (in a good way), than most of us here at SKW...But good thought...

He could have annoyed either the company OR other factions...

At most the old majors you needed to pass first class needed or not. Capt's every six mo. FO's every 12....

Legally, I don't think they can require a higher class medical than required for your seat at least not anymore.

They CAN however require a first class to get hired, on the premise that they are highering future capatins.

The airlines used to get away with some pretty draconian medical criteria, above and beyond the FAA, but they have eased off quite a bit in the last ten years.

I really didn't post the questions asked by the examiner as relevant, or not; but merely to give an impression of how quickly it went down hill. From question one. I missed it. Question 2, missed, 3 missed.... obviously, knowing that this could be step one in your termination, and that you'll never fly again (or at least not for one h*ck of a long time) in the U.S. of A.; it definitely was choke time.

Surely, many of those questions in the real world are look 'em up type questions. But this oral was not conducted that way, nor would anybody at SkW expect to look something up in the oral, to my knowledge. I accurately spewed out the duty rest chart, for instance, but misapplied the data. He obviously knew to ask that question as one that folks would probably screw up. I bit.

I asked him the next day (while he was issuing my second pink slip) how many folks got the "50ft minimum approach light" question right. He said almost nobody.

Certainly more questions were asked than I listed. On the approach lights, he also asked how long the lights of an ALSF-2 extended from the runway. I said 3000ft. It's 2600.

When I got that wrong, he made it a point to tell me how important that piece of information was, so that you could judge the RVR. Not sure I buy that either, since I only (legally) care what the reported RVR is, and whether or not I have the "adequate visual references" when I land.

He showed me an enroute chart, folded to show Reno in the center. He asked what was required to fly in there. The only thing I could think of was that it has Class C, so I said two way radio comm and xponder with mode C.

Wrong, of course; he expect me to say extra fuel contingency since there isn't a nearby airport to divert to.

He asked how far away I could plan a take-off alternate. I said 175 miles, which... you guess it, was wrong. I was getting questions wrong that I knew the answers to... the actual number that SkW trains in the EMB is 165 miles.

He asked if the 165 was go/no go; in other words, could I plan an airport at 168 miles. I said no, if 165 was the number we were supposed to go by. Of course, I got that wrong, too, and he gave an example of a crew who didn't depart when their takeoff alternate was 168 miles. Another example where years of familiarity with the "lore of the vessel" would have helped immensely, and I doubt there would have been many of those type of questions I would have stumbled over in the CRJ.

IF ONLY YOU HAD A UNION REP TO CALL

Also I feel kinda bad for people that want nothing more in life to fly an airplane that they would go to YEMEN to do it. Life is too short and way to precious to live in the MIDDLE EAST..................that included Dubai for all the EMIRATES cheerleaders in here ;)

Tony, you seem like a good guy it is a shame what happened but I would not want to work for a company like that anyway, low class in my opinion, at least how it seems to have gone down

True...now what scumbucket would destroy a career like that? TW was good for the Pilot group :mad:

I think one of the moderators could use some moderation. And it's not the first time.

At Mesa, if you are over 40, you must hold a first class medical CA or F/O. Straight out of our ops manual.

You should take any complaints that you have with moderation to the admins.

USMCFLYR

Conspiracy Theories
 

I don't think somebody was out to "get me". I really liked working for SkyWest, and I think I did my job well.

But, I will say that I felt pretty d*mn stupid for some of my cheer leading for this company. I honestly thought that I would be trained to succeed; taken care of, like you would a family member. Would you kick out your son out of your life if he failed a class in school, and banish him from ever coming back? Of course not, but at SkW, it truly is a business... a really BIG business.

I felt stupid for the times I volunteered (at the last minute, as line holder) to get the company out of a bind and fly trips on my days off (when they ran out of reserves last summer, I actually commuted from SoCal to SLC to do the Helena overnight).

I felt REALLY stupid when I got the bill for my hotel in SLC on the day I got canned. The company really should pay for that, even for SLC based folks. By the way, the total was $1500.

I felt stupid that I got no per diem while at training, while everybody else raked it in, because I was SLC based and training in SLC.

I felt stupid that I put myself in a situation where this absolute no account airplane was able to tube me so severely. By "no account", I mean that I will never have to check out in this plane in the future, unlike a Boeing or Airbus or Bombardier, or perhaps E-jet. There was very little to be gained (captain/PIC time) with EVERYTHING to lose.

I felt stupid that I didn't get my ATP, and that my 24 months on the written will time out shortly. Not to mention that whoever I eventually will do an ATP with, I'll get to explain to them how I busted that ride last time.

I felt stupid that I handed out buddy passes to my brother and and a friend, and literally got a call a few days after I got canned saying, "hey, it's 6am here (which means it was 5am at my house) and they're saying this ticket is no good". Nice to explain that.

I feel stupid every time I get to crawl on a SkyWest flight to travel... of course, I now have to pay for the privilege.

I feel stupid that I can't jumpseat, even if I do work for a foreign airline.

I feel stupid that I couldn't get an interview at the lowest respect airlines this country has.

I feel stupid, and guilty, that for me to continue in this business means that my 6 and 8 year old kids will not see me much.

I never said, or even suggested, that those weren't valid questions. I was pointing out that I got them wrong. Virtually all wrong... I listed them in the same order they were asked.

Further, this guy had been an examiner on the EMB-120 for quite some time. He knows what questions folks don't know. The "push to test" light near the brake handle is not in the Embraer manuals. It wasn't covered in class (to my knowledge). So, my references would not have helped.

Same thing on the "50 feet MDA" theory. There's nothing in the regs that specify this. It's an interpretation of the regs.

For whatever reason, on a personal level, the examiner and I absolutely did not "click". The instructor I had in the sim had a pretty bad reputation as being a hard *ss, and I got along with him just fine. Same situation in the jet, I had a sim instructor with a colorful reputation. I had no problems. But, in both cases, my sim partners in both planes (CRJ and EMB) clashed with those same instructors, and both had training issues (one failed his final sim check, the other, as I mentioned, didn't get signed off for the sim check).

I've had a lot of "check rides" in my adult life. I worked at 3 separate ATC facilities, and checked out in each one. I passed the FAA Academy in OKC on the first try, which had a 50% washout rate at the time. In Oakland Center, to get area rated required something like 8 to 10 check rides over 3 to 5 years. I checked out where another 40% did not.

At SoCal approach, certification took 6 check rides over typically one to two years. And Camarillo tower required two check rides over less than a year. Plus, obviously passing all my pilot certificates, and the CRJ course. Miscellaneous other check outs, too.

I had laid out all my documents for the examiner. When he arrived, he commented favorably on that. I mentioned that I've done this checkout thing a few times in my life, and mentioned my ATC background. He said that he had wanted to be a controller (at one time) too.

It seemed we might develope some kind of rapport, and he went right into the questions. Of course, I'll never know, but I wonder if he was a former ATC washout. We had lots of 'em, and as a young guy, I was as arrogant as any 30 year old making almost 100k year (in the early 1990's). Could have been an issue.

I really hate thinking those thoughts, 'cuz it deflects from the reality. I failed where other succeeded. There were many, many factors. I can tell ya that 4am every morning was getting old. Doing ground in SLC, then FTD in FAT, and sim in LGB, all without any appreciable break was tough.

The pressure of knowing you were committed to either passing or being fired even affected the folks who breezed through the program (except for me and my sim partner, everybody else was under 30).

As you know Tony I strongly disagreed with you during the ALPA drive, but have nothing but the best wishes for you now. If it were me I would be investigating my legal recourse as the actions of one individual (I'm betting J.L.) have seriously compromised your career. I see several things that should have been flags for SKW. First I am surprised they would allow the same individual to evaluate you for two consecutive failures. Most professional programs would require you to be evaluated by two different examiners. Additionally I find it extremely arbitrary for the third strike to be a decision to not allow you to attempt to pass whatever event would come next. I for the life of me can not see how that constitutes a strike. It seems to me the company is in violation of their own policy. For the company to then not allow you to resign is incredible, but not really surprising.

I've been around the industry for a long time and the things I hear about some in the training department are very hard for me to process. It seems some who are in positions of power have no regard for the people who's lives are affected by their actions. They seem to take great pleasure in earning reputations for being "bust kings". Most of the oral questions from the examples you sited were completely bogus. If that type of question were asked by an examiner at my former airline it would be first and last time, after that the examiner would be back on the line. What you experienced was unreasonable and devastating to your future and for what? So someone can brag about another notch on their belt?

Maybe D.D. can give you the name of the lawyer who represented him.....

Tony,
It sucks what happened to you with SKW. Just sucks. No other word for it (at least not one that would make it past the mods;) ) I'm sure the last thing someone as proud as you wants is more pity. But for what its worth, I for one have read every word written here and will definitely be taking your lesson to heart. Best of luck to you in whatever you pursue in the future.

Ya know, I really thought about that. I was resigned to defeat, after such a brutal blow in the oral. I even told the guy that I didn't expect that he would pass me on the sim after the performance on the oral.

But, I agree. It should be company policy that the examiner is changed, not necessarily because he can't be impartial (heck, there's no pressure on him... just another day at the office), but it adds pressure on the trainee in an already amped up experience.




Not signing the trainee off for a retake is in SP-315 as a strike, so they did follow their policy. The policy, by the way, that is approved by SAPA, and that by my guess, at least half the SAPA reps would still support.

I will offer one super chicken sh*t response when I was told I wouldn't be given another oral or sim check ride. He actually said that the FAA would want to be there since it was a retake, and suggested somehow that was a problem for SkW, or him personally, or the man on the moon. I kinda felt like knocking the *sshole on his *sshole after that statement. He also offered a bunch of issues that I had previously in training as reasons, when I offered that I thought that was the purpose of training. The next check ride is where I need to shine.

I still can't really believe they didn't let me re-take, when the examiner was right there. I mean literally right there. Sitting in the same room, getting ready to give my sim partner his checkride. Since no other classes were planned, and there were two less people in our class than were originally planned for, there was no sim schedule issues. It was wide open, and my retake was actually scheduled for the next morning. My IOE was still scheduled.

I'm sure SkW EMB guys would know him. John XXX, San Diego based, short, kinda of loud voice for a short guy. He just got up, sorta grunted, and left the room. Never said jack squat... no good luck, hey, sorry to see that, let's see what we can do, not even goodbye. Real people person.




Perhaps. Not sure how much headache and money I'd want to expend to get a somewhat low paying job!!!

I spent almost two hours doing my upgrade oral about 5 years ago. Although I had flown the EMB, I decided to upgrade on the RJ. Out of the two hours spent on the oral we spent less than 5 minutes on aircraft systems. The entire oral was on the FOM, Op Specs, MX procedures, FARs, etc. At the end of the oral the examiner asked for some feedback. I told him how surprised I was that we had hardly talked about the aircraft. He responded by saying that we had learned the aircraft in class and in the sim, and that the stuff we had talked about was more related to being a Captain. I had similar questions as Tony and it had come as somewhat as a surprise.

I've been told that it comes down to one thing for the instructor/DE. Would I feel safe putting my family onboard your aircraft the day after you finish Captain IOE? You could answer all of the questions correctly and fly the sim and aircraft just fine and still not past that test.

I've recognized a few First Officers that can fly the aircraft just fine but I couldn't imagine them being in the Left Seat. Judgement, initiative and so on are lacking. We all know someone of this type. We've even had captains sent back to the right seat because of this.

I should add that I'm not saying that this applied to Tony.

Myself (and others) have. They never bother responding.

Not suggesting going the legal route to get the job back, rather to compensate you for the damage done to your career.

I'll relate another story that was told to me by another pilot. When he went through newhire EMB training he had a terrible time with his instructor. The guy would on give him about an hour of sim time each day, while his partner used rest of the 4 hour block. He spoke to the instructor about it, complaining he didn't feel comfortable with the limited amount of hands on flying he was getting. The instructors response was that he was just a 50+ year old hobby pilot living off his retirement and flying here for fun. That the sim time should go to the 20 something year old professional pilot!

Maybe this was the same guy. Maybe he had a grudge. Perhaps he had been violated by ATC in the past and took it out on you.

Without a doubt some of the guys in the training department have a GOD complex.

Just sent you a PM

Tony, please talk to an attorney...

I'm surprised that you were sent on to the sim after the unsat oral. At Mesa, you must satisfactorily pass the oral before you are allowed to attempt the checkride.

The number of attempts at the oral are not unlimited. I think a 3 strike policy is employed. However, if you need 3 tries to pass the oral, then you have to "win out" through the remainder of training. That is, no re-trains, and the checkride must be clean the 1st time through.

I don't know why the FAA would HAVE to be at a re-training event, or even a re-checkride. My sim partner required several re-trains and no FAA rep was ever present. I don't know about a re-checkride, but I would suspect the examiner would have to be different.

I would not have gone to the sim checkride after failing the oral.

Say you passed the checkride. Then what do you go? Go back and re-do the oral? What if you failed that second oral after passing the sim? What the heck SkyWest!

I wasn't sure how to repond to this thread, but I am a former SKYW guy that did the CRJ FO-EMB CA transition. I too had never flown the EMB. The training program is fast paced, and they do expect a lot during the first type ride, especially if it is also your ATP ride. I received almost the same questions on my EMB and CRJ orals.

As what TW said, up or out, is different than qualify in turn. Failing a checkride is also not the end of your career. I interviewed at NWA with a couple of people who had failed checkrides, and they were hired. They don't get the PRIA paperwork until after you interview and have a chance to explain what happened.

As for whether an airline can require an F/O to hold a first class medical, most legacy carriers do. I must hold a first class medical, but I am only required to take it once a year, no matter what age.

So you need two-way comms, a transponder, and contingency fuel.

Anything else?!?

You also need a flashlight. And a current medical certificate. And a First Officer. And a beacon and nav lights. And a flight attendant if there are passengers. And a copy of the AFM. And a VOR check within 30 days. And seatbelts. And oil. And 8 hours rest within the preceeding 24 hours. And a FCC certificate. And current weather and NOTAMs. And three landings within the preceeding 90 days. And a million other things.

I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of aviation has answered the what was required to fly in there question completely and correctly.

That's a loaded question, no winning there

I just had a chat with my favorite attorney this evening. The one thing that jumped out to this attorney was how the company regularly, and persistently reminded you that this program was "up-r-out", but would usually qualify that by saying that almost nobody fails training at SkW.

Naturally, this policy wouldn't work if folks thought they were seriously going to get fired. They wouldn't sign up. The EMB training manager actually gave us numbers. I wrote them down at the time. He said 5 had failed in 4 years. I remember thinking what a bunch of dumb*sses those 5 must have been. I had two classmates question me about it; one was concerned enough that I went and talked to one of the training managers and discussed his concerns (as a SAPA rep, anonymous pilot). I pretty much offered the party line; "Hey, they've got a lot of money invested in us. They're not going to let you fail. Just do your best."

One of the SAPA reps was in that first Metro upgrade class when it was announced (after the class started) that the new policy was "up-r-out". So, when the group became unresponsive in class, the instructor reassured them with, "who do you know that has ever failed a SkW training event?"

He passed, but the reality is folks do not pass. Not very many. But way more than 5 in 4 years. It's just quietly shuffled under the carpet when it happens. We heard that a female new hire had just failed the ground school written exam twice. She was fired, but offered to reapply in 6 months.

But the two female upgrades who failed before our class (unsubstantiated rumor), of course, were fired just like me.

And naturally, they don't include the folks who quit, like the one guy who did in my class, just after the ground written. He basically quit in lieu of waiting to fail and then getting fired.

The other substantial thing is that virtually ANY OTHER TRAINING EVENT at SkW has a backup plan if things go bad, except for upgrade.

Sounds like Skywest needs a union....