CRJ1000 Exists in ICT
10-27-2008 | 06:20 PM
#21
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Hey, here's a concept. How about airline X just uses it's own pilots to do all of airline X's flying, and quits using subcontractors. It's the proliferation of all these small lift providers which is keeping wages depressed in this industry vis a vis the whipsaw.
Now I know that there are some who will answer, "But what about those pilots who didn't want to fly an RJ and caused the birth of this mess?"
Well, most of those guys have since retired, and do we really want to keep paying the price for their stupidity? With that said though, there is really no way to change things until every pilot supports changing the status quo at the regional level, and that's not very likely to happen.
Now I know that there are some who will answer, "But what about those pilots who didn't want to fly an RJ and caused the birth of this mess?"
Well, most of those guys have since retired, and do we really want to keep paying the price for their stupidity? With that said though, there is really no way to change things until every pilot supports changing the status quo at the regional level, and that's not very likely to happen.
10-27-2008 | 06:36 PM
#22
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From: The Beginnings
10-27-2008 | 06:38 PM
#23
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From: A320
was surprised a few weeks back when my wife and i rode to philly on a republic 170. I had ridden the 190 out of CLT on mainline once, and was the last passenger on the aircraft, and over my seat i had enough bin space for my overnight bag, and on the opposite side of the plane, i had enough room for my flight case. Was very very impressed, when on a republic 170, they were checking the last 5-10 bags that were coming on board, stood out as interesting. Makes me wonder if with the decrease in length, the overhead bin space (per passenger) was reduced some?
Also, i have a hard time believing that companies will pay their employees more to fly these larger 100 seat aircraft. When good companies (or even bad companies) go to the negotiating table they all start from the same play book, pay as little as you can get away with. The company doesn't WANT to pay you a RESPECTABLE wage to fly the airplanes, if they did that, it'd eat into profits, and management bonuses. Also, soon as company A decides to to pay their pilots more, company B will swoop in offer their pilots the ability to fly the same airplane, but for a couple bucks less, and the pilots will agree to it so they can get the planes on property (with the hopes of negotiating better pay at a later date), company A will now not be competitive, and all those pilots with better pay will be trying to find other jobs....it's happened before, and, sadly, will happen again.
Also, i have a hard time believing that companies will pay their employees more to fly these larger 100 seat aircraft. When good companies (or even bad companies) go to the negotiating table they all start from the same play book, pay as little as you can get away with. The company doesn't WANT to pay you a RESPECTABLE wage to fly the airplanes, if they did that, it'd eat into profits, and management bonuses. Also, soon as company A decides to to pay their pilots more, company B will swoop in offer their pilots the ability to fly the same airplane, but for a couple bucks less, and the pilots will agree to it so they can get the planes on property (with the hopes of negotiating better pay at a later date), company A will now not be competitive, and all those pilots with better pay will be trying to find other jobs....it's happened before, and, sadly, will happen again.
10-27-2008 | 06:43 PM
#24
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From: A320
10-28-2008 | 01:17 PM
#25
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From: Aeroplanes
10-28-2008 | 04:08 PM
#26
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From: On Top
Hahah. Seriously.
The line between what is regional and what is mainline is definitely becoming more and more indiscernible. Ask an Airways guy if he thinks the EMB-190 belongs on property and if your experience is anything compared to mine, he will tell you it's a regional jet being used by the airline to drive down their pay. I agree. I still see planes like the EMB-190, 195 and CRJ-1000 as regional airplanes meant for regional carriers. Although great airplanes, they just don't have the feel or performance that many "mainline" planes like the 737 have. Personally I see these new planes as a chance for regional pilots to make a stand and demand more pay. Personally I think one of the reasons our pay is so low is because companies have justified it by comparing our pay to the amount of passengers we carry - 50 passengers doesn't sound like that many so don't pay them very much. Now that that the line between mainline and regional is becoming blurred, maybe a regional will step up and pay their pilots respectably to fly this new breed of 100+ pax airplane. A smart regional would as I see these new airplanes as the birds of the future, coming into popularity as the inefficient CRJ-200's and ERJ-145's are phased out.
The line between what is regional and what is mainline is definitely becoming more and more indiscernible. Ask an Airways guy if he thinks the EMB-190 belongs on property and if your experience is anything compared to mine, he will tell you it's a regional jet being used by the airline to drive down their pay. I agree. I still see planes like the EMB-190, 195 and CRJ-1000 as regional airplanes meant for regional carriers. Although great airplanes, they just don't have the feel or performance that many "mainline" planes like the 737 have. Personally I see these new planes as a chance for regional pilots to make a stand and demand more pay. Personally I think one of the reasons our pay is so low is because companies have justified it by comparing our pay to the amount of passengers we carry - 50 passengers doesn't sound like that many so don't pay them very much. Now that that the line between mainline and regional is becoming blurred, maybe a regional will step up and pay their pilots respectably to fly this new breed of 100+ pax airplane. A smart regional would as I see these new airplanes as the birds of the future, coming into popularity as the inefficient CRJ-200's and ERJ-145's are phased out.
There are multiple flaws in your line of thinking. First off, the efficiency of an aircraft is directly affected by the price of fuel. Right now at the current market price, mainline carriers should see an increase on their margins associated with the 50 seaters. Second, a CRJ1000 is a DC-9 size aircraft, it's by all means and accounts a mainline aircraft even by our current standards (see JetBlue, USair, AirCanada, etc.).
The biggest problem with your mentality is that you actually think a regional is going to pay "good" rates to fly a mainline size aircraft....sadly it would defeat the point of it's existence, hence the contracting of cheaper flying to regionals.
What should happen, is the mainline carriers begin to take back all of the regional flying. You do understand that if these birds make it to the regionals, that will be less jobs at the majors don't you? Either you're very new to the industry and you got a bad case of SJS, or you want to be a lifer at your regional. Either way, you fall in the minority.
10-28-2008 | 06:04 PM
#28
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From: blueJet
With 5-8 regionals working for each major, how does the CRJ1000 give any regional pilot a chance to make a stand and demand anything?
10-29-2008 | 10:47 AM
#29
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From: A320 FO
That's extremely short sighted thinking. Oil prices have fallen substantially and god willing they will stay that way, but for how long? The 200 had it's 15 minutes and it's on its way out. Their old, tired and inefficient airplanes. Think of it this way, the 200's may be slightly profitable now, but the 7 and 9's are much more profitable. The Q4 has sealed the 200's fate in my opinion. I think it's obvious that T-props are just much more economical for 30-70 pax than a jet.
10-29-2008 | 11:47 AM
#30
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From: On Top
I can assure you I'm neither. You bring up some good points, sometimes my thinking is a little idealistic. My main point was that the mainline carriers don't want these airplanes and they seem like a better fit for a regional carrier than a mainline carrier. Do I think regionals are going to play fair and actually pay pilots what they deserve for flying them? No. Do I think pilots should adamantly refuse to fly them without substantial pay increases? Yes.
No, I disagree. I think most mainline carriers would use them to replace again 737 fleets and pay their pilots less to fly them. They may gain a route here or there but I don't think airplanes like the 1000 will provide much in the way of additional routes and jobs. I think they would just help the majors drive pay down even further.
That's extremely short sighted thinking. Oil prices have fallen substantially and god willing they will stay that way, but for how long? The 200 had it's 15 minutes and it's on its way out. Their old, tired and inefficient airplanes. Think of it this way, the 200's may be slightly profitable now, but the 7 and 9's are much more profitable. The Q4 has sealed the 200's fate in my opinion. I think it's obvious that T-props are just much more economical for 30-70 pax than a jet.
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