Originally Posted by labbats (Post 492941)

JO would not agree to block or better unless he knew he could take it back again with PBS. I would never agree to PBS, and especially not at Mesa. Best of luck to you regardless.

Originally Posted by UNDGUY (Post 493145)

I would love to have Air Wisky's contract. I think most of the regional industry would love to have Air Wisky's contract. In fact, I would really like to have Southwest's contract, let's draw that up and send it to JO. The fact is we work for Mesa Airlines and we need to be realistic about our expectations. And before someone says it, I know JO loves the fact that I am saying that. You say what if we negotiate for 88 months the next time we negotiate, I say what if we are stuck with this current contract while we negotiate for 88 months.

Originally Posted by Sniper (Post 492992)

No it's not. Air Wiskey's basic rules (Duty rig: 2:1; Trip rig: 4:1, Minimum 12 days off per month, An extra day off if arrive after 02:00 on the last "day" of a trip) would be a big deal (An "enormous deal" would be getting Delta's work rules or pay on par with Southwest's). These things are right off the Air Wiskey page of APC, and are what all airlines should have as a basis.


Mesa already pays historic trip values, which take into account most of the taxi time. Sure, it doesn't cover a blizzard in one of these cities - true. That being said, block or better is like putting a band-aid on a gaping wound - it's just not enough.


Appearances in this case are not deceiving. 2.1% in 2010 is actually a paycut, b/c it doesn't even keep up with the Consumer Price Index. The CPI has gone up over 18% since 2003, when the last Mesa TA was signed. You'd have to get 19% raises across the board to just keep up with inflation.



True. But signing a TA for 1 huge improvement for 15% of the pilot group is not a good decision for the pilot group as a whole. Besides, Air Wiskey has 12 days off for all pilots, including reserves. And that's after taking concessions.


While Mesa's current contract is not great, you currently would be taking concessions in the following areas:

- No min guarantee for line-holders
- increased training note
- PBS
- required flight check-in
- Freedom certificate lock
- pairing construction language
- no trip trade or pick-up out of domicile
- Reduction in guarantee pay over the year (910 hours versus 909.96)
- Loss of pay override for VOL pick-up
- inability to decline a standing bid award


How do you arrive @ the conclusion that this TA is an improvement when you're taking so many concessions? What you're doing is joining all the other regionals who've taken concessions recently - why join them? Especially when they had more than you, so, even with concessions, they end up with a better contract then Mesa currently has. One of the few things Mesa has not done is take concessions (they didn't take any in 2003 - with the exception of a change to 'move days' language that was slipped by them) - don't take them now either.


You're not, and it shows in the TA that has been negotiated. Continue with the current agreement for another year until things improve rather than taking concessions. If you take concessions now, you'd have to have a reasonable belief that you'd share in the gains when the company was making $. That didn't happen for Mesa's pilots from 2004-2007 when Mesa accumulated over a quarter of a billion dollars, so it's not logical to think things will be different in the future (the only airline that would even consider such thinking would be Southwest).


What about if you don't finish negotiating until 82 months from now. Ask ASA - it happens.

As a reserve FO, this is probably your first airline gig. I highly suggest you spend as much time in the crew rooms, @ MesaHub.com (the forum for Mesa pilots), and talking to your CA's as possible about this new TA and the ramifications of it. One of the problems with Mesa is that most of the guys who care about these issues are often the same proactive individuals who move on to better carriers. That's not going to happen for a bit (there's nowhere to go, really), so those who are at the regionals now are going to have to make a stand themselves, not rely on riding the coattails of those who have gone before you.

In short, I respectfully disagree with your analysis, 'UNDGUY' - if the TA does come to pass, I hope your analysis is more accurate than mine.

Originally Posted by 8LatRB (Post 492347)

Who is telling you this? I hear this over and over it makes no sense, IMHO. There is no evidence to show that Mesa has a plan that would prevent a bankruptcy. Mesa has a pilot contract that doesn't expire and that absent a bankruptcy, that same contract will likely be in effect for at least another two years. The RLA process takes some time before unions are allowed self help which is the only thing which could hurt Mesa's cash flow. If threatened with a strike, management would likely file to prevent it.

What is going to determine Mesa's bankruptcy is its cash position, performance and its ability to keep and earn new capacity agreements. The reality is the Mesa has little cash, its performance is near the bottom of the regional carriers and airlines are suing Mesa to cancel their service.

This TA doesn't address pay (for the most part), trip and duty rigs, insurance, and the line guaranty is conditioned up PBS which, after all the commotion, is still totally manipulated at the discretion of the company.

I'm not saying the TA is bad or good, but it doesn't appear to address the concerns which would prevent a bankruptcy. It may or may not happen regardless of the TA. If the bankruptcy happens, PBS will be imposed, premium pay will go away and understaffing will go back to nearly where it was in January.

Originally Posted by Slice (Post 492974)

Is there pay protection? Block or better don't mean squat if they cancel your flights and you don't get paid. If you are awarded an 85 hour line and get paid 70 that's crap. Inform yourself. The only people I'd trust less than ALPA in negotiations is JO. If you push things back 2 years by taking this there will just be a new excuse in 2 more years. Not to mention when JO has you, he'll drag the next round of negotiations on forever.

Originally Posted by Airfix (Post 493807)

Well some senior captains have been saying that JO really really wants us to sign this contract if we don't sign it we have him over a barrel and will be able to negotiate for what we are worth. Then from there speculation takes over as to why he needs a pilot contract. Having not ever worked in finance I used logic to deduce that companies want a employee contract so that they have a fixed known cost over a period of time so that they can plan their budgets, look for financing and look stable to potential buyers or to their share holders. Not that anybody in their right mind would say Mesa is a stable place.

I agree obviously that a pilot contract give no guarantees that Mesa will stay out of bankruptcy but I would be surprised if Mesa management does not have a plan to try and keep the company from bankruptcy. It might not be a good plan but never the less there are people in Mesa that think they know what they are doing to prevent bankruptcy.

So to be clear what you are saying is:

1) Mesa appears to be on the inevitable path bankruptcy
2) Don't vote on the TA thinking it will keep us from bankruptcy because it probably won't.
3) Mesa's cash flow would be hurt by ALPA going down the RLA route for negotiations making bankruptcy more inevitable
4) If we go into bankruptcy either contract old or new would be thrown out and we'd end up making concessions

Our ALPA lawyer guy said if we were to sign this TA then bankruptcy court would have a very hard time throwing it out due to the fact Mesa signed it so recently when management must have been aware of bankruptcy concerns. Other factors could be that it is arguably still below an industry standard contract.

Originally Posted by paxhauler85 (Post 493816)

ALPA seems to honestly think this is a good contract. I read the entire thing, went to the roadshow, and participated in the conference call.

This contract is terrible, and a slap in the face. It's going to be a no vote from me, and everyone else I've spoken to. It's the junior guys (like yourself) that I worry about. I urge you to read the entire contract, and attend a roadshow. Then ask questions.

I trust you will see the lack of anything good (beyond block or better) in this TA.

Originally Posted by Sniper (Post 492992)

While Mesa's current contract is not great, you currently would be taking concessions in the following areas:

- No min guarantee for line-holders

Originally Posted by Sniper (Post 492992)

What about if you don't finish negotiating until 82 months from now. Ask ASA - it happens.

Originally Posted by paxhauler85 (Post 493816)

ALPA seems to honestly think this is a good contract. I read the entire thing, went to the roadshow, and participated in the conference call.

This contract is terrible, and a slap in the face. It's going to be a no vote from me, and everyone else I've spoken to. It's the junior guys (like yourself) that I worry about. I urge you to read the entire contract, and attend a roadshow. Then ask questions.

I trust you will see the lack of anything good (beyond block or better) in this TA.