MESA Ta
 

its out on the ALPA MAG site.

only improvement is Block or better, 11 days off for reserve and... thats about it
Increased training note cost, PBS, Freedom certificate lock, mandatory flight check in, a pathetic Raise in 2010 if we keep PBS, no min line guarantee for line holders, the list of cons go on.

My ALPA brothers and sisters we are going to need your help to tell APLA to step up to the ******* plate

im so frickin disappointed

vote no ya'lllllll

I'm not impressed with the TA at all

Burn it down!

Keep fighting guys. I'll gladly join you on the picket line.

Is that right? That's pretty good if it is based on a 28-bid cycle. Would be better than most regionals out there.

As for everyone else telling the Mesa pilots to burn the house down, are you saying that because you would get their flying if they do? Hard to take the rest of us at our word at telling Mesa pilots to strike when it would surely result in them losing all of their flying.

No, I say it as a LAMA and it's what I'd be saying if I still worked there.

Ditto. If I thought there were enough people there who felt the same way, I might have stayed.

MAG's problems extend far beyond their pilot contract, that is not going to make or break them...if the pilots give concessions, JO will merely pee them into the wind. Even a massively improved MAG contract would still be industry-mediocre.

I’m not sure what to make of all this. Hopefully the road shows have some more of the logic behind why we should accept this TA. I know discussing this on a public forum is probably not appropriate prior to the road shows but I just can’t help myself. It seems nobody uses the ALAPA MAG forum.

Anyway for those who have read the TA on the ALPA website:

What do you make of having to check in for our trip no sooner than 24 hours prior and no later than 2 hours prior? I know a lot of my commuter flights don’t arrive until 2 hours prior to my show time.

I’m not totally thrilled on the language regarding pairing construction. It says that the company will build pairings to maximize pilot’s flight time for a given period. That really doesn’t mean anything. The way to for the company to build efficient lines of time is to put a guarantee that we will get paid a minimum of say 4 hours for each day we show for duty.

It also states there will be 2 ALPA scheduling committee members will be able to participate in the pairing construction process. Is this different to what we have now?

I’m very skeptical of the PBS system and how Mesa will manage it. For me PBS should be about making our schedules as flexible as possible. Any time I’ve tried to FLICA something it gets denied for insufficient reserve coverage. How will this be different in the PBS system and I’m talking about switching a trip for another trip on completely different days, not just picking up stuff on my days off or swapping flights on days I am already scheduled to fly? That would be true schedule flexibility.

I also noticed they have taken away the ability to pick up or trade trips out of our domicile. I never had it happen but always liked the idea that I could pick up flying or swap trips with a domicile closer to my home.

BTW the 11 days off is per calendar month.

What good is a contract if BK is looming? Didn't JO say he can't pay off their airplane bill in Jan?? Not to mention courts and delisting problems?

So i would expect a lot more $$$ if you have no job security. Kinda like a contract employee. You just never know when it is going to end. And i know it's not like anyone has any kind of job security but nevertheless. You need to make your money now. Not in the next contract cause that might just never happen.

12 month bid cycle

Check in 2-24 hours prior!?!? BE CAREFUL! If you have to be on a company network (ie physivally at the airport), then you will basically be getting two hours of ready-reserve at the start off each trip!

If you're a commuter, you don't want to check in from home, cuz if you don't make your flight, guess what? You LIED, and they can fire you for that!

You are dead-on about the pairing construction...without PRECISE language, words like "maximize" are meaningless...sounds like a synonym for "to the extent possible".

PBS is worrse than useless without absolute control of system parameters by way of contract language. The auto drop feature will only work if you have language requiring a certain reserve coverage.

Soundds like another winner from MAG ALPA :mad:

If he can obtain a negotiated contract with set terms then someone just might be willing to buy the company.

Yeah I know with all the baggage etc. blah blah blah I can see the rebuttal already.

I agree with the check in BS that rick refers to, don't the FA's have to deal with that BS on Ready RSV already? That's asking for a major headache for everyone. JO's got something up his sleeve why else would he be willing to bargain for a new contract? His bean counters love the current one.

Unlike rick I have more faith in MAG pilots willingness to hold out for something better. I wish them the best of luck to hang in there and hang tough.

How do you put that kind of language in a contract? For the companies that have PBS and are happy with it how do you control the reserve coverage? Surely the company can decide to staff the airline anyway they choose. I can't imagine putting in a line that says 'minimum reserve coverage each day should be xx% of the number of pilots on roster' would help the PBS issues because the company would always operate at xx% reserve therefore would have reason to deny any PBS operations.

I guess you would need language that states minimum reserve coverage to be xx%. This xx% should be enough to allow a yy number PBS transactions that will call upon reserves. Then when reserve coverage drops to zz% due to PBS transactions no more PBS transactions will be permitted.

My concern is also the big picture. For instance if we sign this contract JO now has fixed costs for the next 2 years and can therefore make it easier for Mesa to get financing for whatever financial time bombs are looming. If we don't sign this contract will Mesa go tits up and will we be out of a job? For me signing a contract like this to keep my job might be worth while.

On the other hand now could be the time to negotiate for everything we want. JO is over a barrel and knows he can't get financing without a pilot contract and the company will go tits up without it. Therefore now is the time when we have most leverage over the company and now is precisely the time when ALPA needs to stand their ground and negotiate for everything we need.

I'm hoping our ALPA guys provide us good leadership and insight into the big picture at the road shows.

Well put. I am hoping for some more insight as well.

I'm confused, do you want to give in to JO so you can keep your job or do you want ALPA to fight for a better contract? It's just amazing how history repeats itself.

What we want is more information in order to make the best (most reasonable) decision. Hopefully that will be fulfilled at the roadshow.

If you are even considering PBS at Mesa, then I feel sorry for you. The same people who brought you "bring your board to work day" and 8 days off a month are going to be controlling your schedules.

As I wasn't at Mesa back during the first contract negotiations I don't know exactly what history you are talking about but I have read and heard a little about it. I am hopeful that the more senior pilots and our ALPA representation do know the history and that they will advise us accordingly so that we can make an informed decision.

Do I want to 'give in' to JO to keep my job? In todays climate having a job is pretty damn important to me probably more than whether I get 130 or 132 days off per year. Would it be 'giving in' or would it be making a good decision that keeps my career aspirations alive and keeps food on the table?

What good would it be to the Mesa pilots if our company went bankrupt? JO could go to court to have our contract repealed 'for the good of the company'. It seems best to me to avoid company bankruptcy if possible. In banruptcy employees always lose more.

I'm sure you think this sounds like giving in but I don't have all the facts and I am sensibly looking at all scenarios before I make a decision. I am looking to ALPA to provide me with their strategy given the facts. Be very sure that if I don't hear sound logic, reason and foresight from our MEC than I'll be asking questions and voting no until I'm satisfied.

Our code shares and management already control the schedules. Why not have some flexibility?

Because it removes any say you have in anything at all. Now you can choose your days off, overnights, etc. With PBS you can only suggest your preferences.

The APA for American isn't allowed to even DISCUSS it with management, yet you're going to let JO pull the strings on every aspect of your line values, legs, overnights, days off and conflicts. Bad idea.

Who is telling you this? I hear this over and over it makes no sense, IMHO. There is no evidence to show that Mesa has a plan that would prevent a bankruptcy. Mesa has a pilot contract that doesn't expire and that absent a bankruptcy, that same contract will likely be in effect for at least another two years. The RLA process takes some time before unions are allowed self help which is the only thing which could hurt Mesa's cash flow. If threatened with a strike, management would likely file to prevent it.

What is going to determine Mesa's bankruptcy is its cash position, performance and its ability to keep and earn new capacity agreements. The reality is the Mesa has little cash, its performance is near the bottom of the regional carriers and airlines are suing Mesa to cancel their service.

This TA doesn't address pay (for the most part), trip and duty rigs, insurance, and the line guaranty is conditioned up PBS which, after all the commotion, is still totally manipulated at the discretion of the company.

I'm not saying the TA is bad or good, but it doesn't appear to address the concerns which would prevent a bankruptcy. It may or may not happen regardless of the TA. If the bankruptcy happens, PBS will be imposed, premium pay will go away and understaffing will go back to nearly where it was in January.

Guys like you are JO's wet dream! You need to educate yourself ASAP.

Since there are a bunch of Regionals about to have contracts expire why doesnt' ALPA come out with a basic standard contract. Including Pay Rates, Duty Rigs, Trip Rigs etc... Then when a contract is up they can just hand over the already written contract and say that this is industry standard and leave it at that.
Management can't keep coming to get pay cuts from us so they can then show a profit. True leaders make money off the top end not cutting the bottom.

Why, because I'm asking questions and trying to find out what would be best for us?
Why, because I'm new to the industry and I'm looking to ALPA and the people that have been around a long time to help lead us down the right path?
Why, because I am skeptical of managements willingness to sign us into a new contract?

I do look good in a thong mind you, maybe that's it.

Can't wait to vote NO. No reason to lower the bar even further. What a joke.

Here's a thought if you want someone to do something....ie vote in a better contract

Do you insult the person not so effective.
Or encourage and educate more effective. The guy admits he's a newb so give him some info not smart a wise cracks.

Also it was mentioned earlier a lock to the freedom cert. Wonder why alpo allowed that in there? Sounds like a good way to furlough out of seniority. Be very cautious with that one.

How new are you? If you're on probation you can't vote anyway. Seems to me like you are buying into the same JO lines of sign it now and we'll fix it later. You need to ask your Capts that have been there for a few years how that works out... With JO, it doesn't. The souls were sold last time to win back the Freedumb flying. There's no excuse this time!

ALPA solidarity
 

That is getting it right - standard pay and senority rights if you go to
another regional too! All of these likely require a threat to strike, but spreading the flying makes it unlikely any one airline will ever strike again. Every other airline will fight each other like dogs over a bone to get all the struck work the mainlines offer. If there is a way to change things, it would probably require the believable threat of a general strike. Facing a total regional shutdown, mainlines would have to pay what the job is worth or pull all the flying back up to the mainlines (and hire).

Ashamed? Why? For asking questions and trying to educate himself as to what is the best and how it happened last time? That is the sole purpose of this forum, to learn from others and that is what he is trying to do. He is asking for advice, give it, don't insult him for asking.

And this coming from a CRJ200 FO. I bet you dont get paid what you are worth, so take a stand and call in and tell them that....and dont go to work until they pay you what your worth.

Mesa TA
 

"only improvements are block or better and 11 days off for reserve"

First off you left out line guarantees which is huge. You make it sound like block or better isn't a big deal. Block or better is an enormous deal for Mesa. Read some old posts on here, everyone said JO will never give up block or better. Ask the guys in ORD, IAD, or JFK how important block or better is to them. You say "pathetic raises." The 2.1% in 2010 may not seem like much, but the block or better will equate to a huge raise for lots of guys that spend more time taxing and sitting in the penalty box than flying. 11 days off for reserves is also a huge improvement. I realize that the people who are on here saying "burn it down" or "vote no" without even seeing the TA probably aren't on reserve but I am and an extra 30 days off a year sounds pretty good to me. I have read the TA and I think it is a big improvement to what we have now. Despite what someone else said on this thread I don't think we are in a very good position to negotiate with the economy the way it is and the airline in the financial situation it is in right now. The only downside I see to this TA is the PBS with almost no restrictions or guidelines for the company, which I acknowledge as a huge downside but I think it is manageable for 22 months until we start negotiating again. Go to the roadshows, get informed on the how's and why's of the TA, look at the charts that alpa has showing how this TA would compare to other regionals and you can come to your own conclusions. My conclusion is that this is going to be an improvement for the pilots in a time when most other regionals are taking concessions and furloughs so I think it is worth doing. Raise the house slowly my friends.

You're going to make the choices, not me so I'll say one more thing and be done with it....

Think about who JO is. Think about where Mesa stands right now. Think about why he's offering anything at all in this TA. It's only so that in the end he will get more out of you for less money.

Block or better is becoming more or less an industry standard at the regional level and any arbitrator will give it to you for little or no loss elsewhere.

PBS with zero restrictions will have you sitting 2-3 hours every time and doing 7 legs with min rest overnights every day of the month. Starting at 6am and finishing at 9pm. Think about that for a minute. There would be nothing to stop it or bid around it. Kiss your 2 1/3 more days off goodbye if you commute.

JO would not agree to block or better unless he knew he could take it back again with PBS. I would never agree to PBS, and especially not at Mesa. Best of luck to you regardless.

Is there pay protection? Block or better don't mean squat if they cancel your flights and you don't get paid. If you are awarded an 85 hour line and get paid 70 that's crap. Inform yourself. The only people I'd trust less than ALPA in negotiations is JO. If you push things back 2 years by taking this there will just be a new excuse in 2 more years. Not to mention when JO has you, he'll drag the next round of negotiations on forever.

No it's not. Air Wiskey's basic rules (Duty rig: 2:1; Trip rig: 4:1, Minimum 12 days off per month, An extra day off if arrive after 02:00 on the last "day" of a trip) would be a big deal (An "enormous deal" would be getting Delta's work rules or pay on par with Southwest's). These things are right off the Air Wiskey page of APC, and are what all airlines should have as a basis.

Mesa already pays historic trip values, which take into account most of the taxi time. Sure, it doesn't cover a blizzard in one of these cities - true. That being said, block or better is like putting a band-aid on a gaping wound - it's just not enough.

Appearances in this case are not deceiving. 2.1% in 2010 is actually a paycut, b/c it doesn't even keep up with the Consumer Price Index. The CPI has gone up over 18% since 2003, when the last Mesa TA was signed. You'd have to get 19% raises across the board to just keep up with inflation.

True. But signing a TA for 1 huge improvement for 15% of the pilot group is not a good decision for the pilot group as a whole. Besides, Air Wiskey has 12 days off for all pilots, including reserves. And that's after taking concessions.

While Mesa's current contract is not great, you currently would be taking concessions in the following areas:

- No min guarantee for line-holders
- increased training note
- PBS
- required flight check-in
- Freedom certificate lock
- pairing construction language
- no trip trade or pick-up out of domicile
- Reduction in guarantee pay over the year (910 hours versus 909.96)
- Loss of pay override for VOL pick-up
- inability to decline a standing bid award

How do you arrive @ the conclusion that this TA is an improvement when you're taking so many concessions? What you're doing is joining all the other regionals who've taken concessions recently - why join them? Especially when they had more than you, so, even with concessions, they end up with a better contract then Mesa currently has. One of the few things Mesa has not done is take concessions (they didn't take any in 2003 - with the exception of a change to 'move days' language that was slipped by them) - don't take them now either.

You're not, and it shows in the TA that has been negotiated. Continue with the current agreement for another year until things improve rather than taking concessions. If you take concessions now, you'd have to have a reasonable belief that you'd share in the gains when the company was making $. That didn't happen for Mesa's pilots from 2004-2007 when Mesa accumulated over a quarter of a billion dollars, so it's not logical to think things will be different in the future (the only airline that would even consider such thinking would be Southwest).

What about if you don't finish negotiating until 82 months from now. Ask ASA - it happens.

As a reserve FO, this is probably your first airline gig. I highly suggest you spend as much time in the crew rooms, @ MesaHub.com (the forum for Mesa pilots), and talking to your CA's as possible about this new TA and the ramifications of it. One of the problems with Mesa is that most of the guys who care about these issues are often the same proactive individuals who move on to better carriers. That's not going to happen for a bit (there's nowhere to go, really), so those who are at the regionals now are going to have to make a stand themselves, not rely on riding the coattails of those who have gone before you.

In short, I respectfully disagree with your analysis, 'UNDGUY' - if the TA does come to pass, I hope your analysis is more accurate than mine.

You obviously are new, otherwise you would see that this contract is a slap in the face.

You do understand that PBS, line guarantee and block or better are tied together, don't you? Meaning if we decide we don't like PBS and end it, we lose block or better, and line guarantee.

Here are some other cons to help you see what a piece of trash it is:

1)No per diem rate increase - remains 1.30/hr.
2)No min guarantee for line-holders - only reserves are guar. 70 hours/month
3)increased training note
4)PBS
5) required flight check-in - must check in now for trips at least 2 hours prior
6) no trip trade or pick-up out of domicile - we can do this right now
7) Reduction in guarantee pay over the year (910 hours versus 909.96) - due to PBS
8)Loss of pay override for VOL pick-up - open time currently pays 150%
9)inability to decline a standing bid award - something we can do now
10) still 50% DH pay
11) A 2% raise for F/O's in 2010

The biggest for me:
200% pay for "improper reassignments." That's the company saying, "we'll pay you 200% when we violate this contract."

If it weren't for block or better, this contract could be worse than the one we work under right now.

I'd say "Despite block or better, this contract is worse than the one we work under right now."

So many concessions, and for the following gains:

- small raise for FO's
- significantly more days off for reserves
- 2 more days off annually for line holders
- 'block or better' by day (is it 'by day' or 'by leg'? I've seen both interpretations, though obviously, 'by leg' is better)

When you take lots of concessions but get some gains, that's still a concessionary contract to me. Your analysis may vary.