Mesa TA
 

This is for the less-experienced MAG folks out there. I'm a Lama and I finally went over to the Hub to read up on all the details of this TA...

My actual reaction to this TA would not get past the profanity filters...suffice it to say that I cannot believe that the MEC is actually sending this to the pilots...it is worse that the freedom A concessionary contract!

It corrects almost none of the long-standing gaping holes in the MAG contract. Block-or-better might be nice, but the folks most impacted by that are UAX...did you guys get the word that UAL is requiring deicing at the gate, BEFORE you block out? They are enforcing this with monitors. So you shut the door, then sit at the gate for 2-3 hours waiting for the iceman...and it does not count as block. No surprise OJ gave that one up.

Almost no raises, and they are limited to a few folks and only go into effect 2 years down the road IF the company keeps PBS.

Speaking of PBS...that's the real gem in this package. Doesn't look like you guys have any control over the paramters or staffing...standby to be raped! OJ will be able to easily take back ALL of the gains, and then some!

But it get's better... manadatory computer check-in TWO HOURS PRIOR!?!?! Again, the appropriate words won't get past the filter. This is an automated junior-man system, combined with two hours of ready reserve prior to each trip! You guys cannot possibly be that stupid...every trip will get a turn or two (or an overnight) tacked onto the end!

Feedom seat lock? Translation: Out of seniority furlough when DAL wins the lawsuit! I forsee a 100% no vote from the freedom folks...nice divide-and-conquer tactic here! Classic OJ.


As scary as MAG's current situation is for the employees, OJ simply cannot afford a strike right now...don't let him off this easy. A 90% NO vote should send the right message.


I could go on and on. If you haven't already checked out mesahub.com please do so...lot's of experienced folks there who have been around this block before.

Good Luck.

2-hour checkin? And I was complaining when Pinnacle tweaked crewtrac so we couldn't checkin from home anymore... yikes..

I agree that we need to vote this contract down. The contractual language is like swiss cheese and I won't vote for anything until the holes are filled. We have experienced they way management exploit loopholes and that's what made everyone so ****ed off.

I would bet the ALPA surveys that were done a year or so ago would have most pilots looking for quality of life improvements. ALPA claims that the way pairings are constructed, PBS and our post award trading system will improve our QOL. I say without contractual language controlling the necessary parameters our QOL will be worse off under this new contract.

I hope my peers can see through the ALPA propaganda and not just vote for block or better, but vote for the long term QOL improvement we need.

Some are frightened if we don't sign this contract that Mesa will go bankrupt and they will be out of a job. I've since changed my view and now realized that if Mesa is on a path to bankruptcy then this contract won't make one bit of difference to the outcome.

We need a contract that pays the pilots what we are worth, not some 2 steps forward 3 steps back settlement. A decent contract may reduce attrition when the majors start hiring and will entice new hires here instead of somewhere else. This will provide stability and help our completion factors, reduce junior assignments and hopefully be one of the bricks in the wall to rebuild the company.

I'm standing firm on a NO vote.

BTW I'm still waiting on a login for the hub. What's the deal. I've never had to wait a week to register for a forum before.

Something tells me it's going to be a yes vote. It doesn't take a history major to understand that history repeats itself.

I've just read something in the contract that surprised me:

This is huge for me. This means I can't just drop that last turn on a pairing to make my last trip home like I can now. There are no options. I can't do it manually, I can't swap it and I can't drop it because it is splitting a pairing.

What does "until such time that all transactions can be automated" mean? How long will that take? Never. Wow this contract really is bad.

Airwillie, who do you know that is voting yes? We need to educate these people. Talk to everyone. Show them the facts. I don't think there is anybody with an ounce of sense that could approve this contract.

AirWillie works at GoJet, not Mesa, Airfix.

Yes ALPA did the surveys but this BS TA and all its selling points are a product of your weak MEC. After all, they approved it and they are the ones sending it out for a vote.

Not only do you need a 90+% no vote but you need to replace your MEC reps as well. Doing both will send a huge message to JO that we at MAG won’t accept mediocrity anymore and we will replace those on our MEC who do……..we mean business.

I don't really know those guys that well and I can't really recommend we replace the MEC reps unless I would be willing to step up to the plate and commit to doing the job myself. Which I am not. I've been in a position like that before and I won't be doing it again and certainly not with my current QOL which has much less home time and flexibility than I expected.

Those guys have been working hard for our benefit. They negotiated a contract that we should all reject. That should be a clear message to our MEC to go get what we need.

I'm not sure of the details of the RLA but maybe the MEC want us to vote no to give them more leaverage but they just can't say that due to some constraints I don't know about. I always try to give people the benefit of doubt.

When do you guys vote on this contract?
Good luck to all

MESA Tentative Agreement Facts:
 

Fellow Professional Airline Pilots,

These are the TERMS of SURRENDER. I've attempted to boil down this new TA as I read it. (Any Corrections Welcome).

Two year agreement with a three month early opener.

Preferential Bidding System based on 12 month bid cycle:
Either party can terminate PBS by 01 Jan 2010
Items to be discontinued if PBS terminated:
a. Scheduled vs. Actual
b. Line guarantee
c. Bid for Training
“PBS will construct as many regular lines as efficiently as practicable”.
“monthly parameters may be changed to optimize schedules.”

Pairing construction:
Two ALPA Scheduling Committee members will be “permitted to participate” in the pairing construction with objectives to “maximize pilot’s flight time during a given duty period” and “ensure the ability to carry out the maketing schedule”.
“The company may withhold up to five percent (5%) of know flying per aircraft”.

Pro-rated minimum days off. When availability “is reduced due to Vacation, Non-Recurrent Training or Leave of Absence, or other absences, days of will be prorated”.

Example: In a 30 Day Month; If awarded 7 Days for Vacation; Then original 11 days off are prorated down to eight for a total of 15 days off for the month. 15 days off total including Vacation.

Minimum Days Off per monthly bid period: 11 days (Line and Reserve)

Minimum pay guarantee for reserve pilots of 75.83 hours.

Scheduled or Actual:
“Pilots will be paid the greater of the scheduled(original trip value) or actual block time (including deadhead time”, calculated by flight segment for the bid period”.

Premium Pay:
Junior assignments 200% rate of equipment flown.
No premium pay for volunteer on scheduled work day.

FLICA continues:
No swaps trades or drops outside of domicile.

Pay Rate Increase:
FO pay increase by 2.1% on 01 Jan 2010.

Improper reassignments
“If an improper reassignment occurs, the pilot will be paid premium pay”.
“The pilot will be returned to his original schedule as soon as practicable”.

Self-Notification: “Pilots will check in for the shift/assignments between 24 and 2 hours prior to the beginning of the first shift/assignment for a trip pairing”.

No decline for Standing Bid/Displacement awards.

One year seat lock for Freedom Certificate awarded/assigned pilots.

:mad: I'm voting NO due to:

NO pilot staffing requirements
NO Junior Assignment restrictions
Forced Self-Notification
NO increase in days off for line holders (2 days per yr.)
NO PBS protective language (parameter changes, etc.)
Schedule or Better tied to acceptance of PBS
Line Guarantee tied to acceptance of PBS
Training Bidding tied to acceptance of PBS
NO trip/duty rigs
NO pay increase for line holders
Insulting 2.1% FO pay increase not until 2010 (Inflation rate currently 4.9%)
Vacation, Leave of Absence or Non-Recurrent Training considered days off under prorate schedule
Ambiguous language remains
NO declining Standing/Displacement Awards
NO pay increase for volunteering on scheduled work day
Swaps and Trades limited to domicile
Stressfull and disruptive negotiations begin all over again in two years
Unbelievable term "Improper Assignments" actually in TA
Managements ability to discontinue PBS at their leisure leaving us with NO improvements

I ask everyone posting comments to keep it professional and use constructive language to help convince our pilots at MESA that this TA is substandard and that if we stick together we can send it back for the improvements we deserve. Many of us here at MESA are trying everything we can to improve the industry under the most adversarial circumstances. Please support the MESA Air Group pilots during these difficult times.

Thanks,
Winglet
MESA Line Pilot

Did the MEC actually recommend this garbage?

I don't have a problem with them letting the pilots vote on this, as long as they recommended a NO vote. The TA being shot down by a wide margin would only serve to strengthen their negotiating position. If the MEC recommended this however, give them the boot.

the problem is they, as per a conference call think this thing is a good step in the right direction.
We really need MR. ALPA prater to step up and stop this horse****

I think everything in your post is accurate except your example here. In a 30 day month if awarded 7 days of vacation your 11 days off would be pro rated down to 8 giving a total of 15 days off which as we know is only 4 more than your 11 guaranteed for 7 days of vacation. Magically the company eats 3 vacation days.

You may not know them personally but you now know their work and what they consider a good contract. As it’s been said, this is a contract of surrender and there should be no surrender with JO.

My friend, you need to talk to some AirTran pilots. After their MEC failed to produce a quality contract they replace them all and started over. You guys need to do the same. After all, you’re not really gaining much with this bottom of the barrel TA so what do you have to lose?

Thanks Airfix,

You are correct. I changed examples mid-thought and it resulted in an math error. I corrected the math on that post.

Anyway, here is the way the company figured out how to take some vacation days from you.

Prorate Schedule for a 30 day month.

Absent vs. Days Off
0-11
1-11
2-10
3-10
4-10
5-9
6-9
7-8
8-8
9-8
10-7
11-7
12-7
13-6
14-6
15-6
16-5
17-5
18-4
19-4
20-4
21-3
22-3
23-3
24-2
25-2
26-1
27-1
28-1
29-0
30-0

Let's say you use two weeks of your vacation. With the current contract and some creative bidding you can match vacation and theoretically get 24 days off in a 28 day month (14 vacation + 10 line holder min)(86% of the Bid Period).

In this TA the company would now only give you a maximum of six days off in addition to your vacation. So now you would be limited to 20 days off in a 30 day month (14 vacation + 6 prorated)(67% of the Bid Period).

Congratulations! You have just relinquished 4 days off (or 19% of your previous possible vacation). My head hurts! :confused: Check my numbers Airfix.

The point really is that the pilot group is being told that this TA is not concessionary when in reality it is nothing but concessions. Especially if (or when) the company decides to cancel PBS and its associated improvements: "Scheduled vs. Actual", Line Guarantee, and Training Bidding would disappear.

Come on people! I have to fly with you. If I hear one person who voted yes complaining , so help me...

I know you are a smart bunch. Do your homework! JUST READ THE TA and call your freinds at the other regional code-shares and compare it to their "concessionary" contracts. You will quickly realize that this TA doesn't even get close.

Vote NO! Send it back! Negotiate a fair contract!

Good Luck...Winglet

-------------------------------------------------------------
“Life is the art of being well deceived; and in order that the deception may succeed it must be habitual and uninterrupted”

William Hazlitt (British Writer, 1778-1830)

Willie-

Perhaps you are alluding to the previous signing of our current contract.

You see, we took huge concessions to prevent "Freedom Airlines" from remaining separate from "Mesa Airlines" and growing with the 70 and 86 seat flying we were awarded from USAir. We got where we are today because we wanted everyone on one list.

In other words, we prevented an alter-ego airline by signing our current contract.

You know all about alter-ego airlines, since you work for one. Go-Jet.

Your comment about history repeating itself is unfounded and stupid. There is no motivation to sign a less than stellar contract, since things can't get any worse here. No alter-ego airlines, nothing.

A resounding NO from me.

From a former ZV'r:
 

Push for a 1 hour sign-in.

AE had (has) a 45 minute or 1 hour sign-in.

A 1 hour sign-in is good for everybody, flight-cabin crews, scheduling and your passengers...

I disagree there is no reason why I should have to "sign in". If I'm a professional I show up for work it's that simple. I don't need to be babysat.

I would agree to this if it was counted as duty time.

The thing with the 24 hour to 2 hour sign in is it doesn't buy the company anything but it forces me to do something for Mesa on my own time. Let's say I'm commuting the day of my trip but I chose to electronically sign in the day prior because of the 5am early morning commute. Now the company is expecting me.

However if I don't make it on my commuter flights then I'll have to call the company back to tell them now that I won't make it. This call would happen at exactly the same time as it would without this electronic check in so the company is getting nothing extra by forcing me to sign in early.

I argue that we are all professionals and that we should be trusted to give the company as much notice as possible when we cannot make it to work, just like in any other industry. If pilots can't be responsible enough to do that then perhaps they are not the type of people you want working in your company.

I read the whole TA and as a LAMA I can't believe this is the crap they sent to you.
I remember taking all those surveys on what we wanted in a new contract and this seems to address only one of all my complaints (block or better)
If you Vote no send it back and have a few more things put in:
If PBS gets dropped by the company block or better and line guarantee stays in.
Get rid of the new hire aircraft locks, its garbage that CRJ FO cant bid Dash Capt, or a Dash FO cant bid CRJ FO (there is no reason any junior pilot should be able to hold a hire position or pay than a senior pilot) not without pay protection. And not this one for one crap.
There should be no such thing as Hold back, it should not exist, not one for one, not anything. If you got awarded something you get it when you are suppose to, PERIOD
They should have to turn on the reserve grid on Flica, you get to see the number of pilots on reserve and the buffer, if it is green you get to drop, no exceptions!!!
Drop for IOE, Its dropped, & Pay protected. PERIOD (given that they are going to withhold those trips in PBS that should pretty much eliminate droped for IOE anyways)
Reserve Call out 2 hrs!!!
Minimum pay for getting called out 4hrs
That's all I can think of right now, I will add more when I think of it

Pretty sure you'll have to sign in at any major/legacy airline. At those airlines, however, it is counted as duty time.

It's not babysitting, its keeping people accountable for being on time, and an early alert for the company to call a reserve in the event of a no show.

I'm not saying we need the 24 hour-2 hour check in a Mesa(I'm actually very opposed since they want to use it as a way to change your trip) but checking in (in an attendance "format") is not useless.

Not only is the MEC pushing for this 2 year TA, but Big ALPA is pushing it as well. Most Mesa guys are saying they are going to vote no, but a few that I know of are voting yes. If I was a betting man, it is going to be a close vote.
By the way to see the unfiltered version of what alot of Mesa pilots view this contract, go to mesahub. More pilots are signing up by the day. :)

Which legacies require the sign in? I'm not aware of any but have done no research on the matter. My current job does not require it.

Still babysitting to me. Keeping folks accountable that's what the 45 minutes prior is for and the ten minute call after that it's in the GOM, course I'm sure you know where it's at.

Check in at mesa = pandora's box for crew trac (also the F8 certificate lock for contract admin)

Good luck I hope it works out.

Either ALPO has something up it's sleeve or they are selling MAG down the river for some reason.:confused:

At my company, we check in 1 hour before flight time and it is counted as duty time. They can not use us for anything during this one hour. It just gives us time to walk to the plane and depart on time. Two hours seems a little long.

The two hours is basically ready reserve...they have a window to reflow YOU and still have time to call a reserve from home (1.5 hour callout). Better pack for Puerto Vallarta AND Edmonton.

My company has check in too, but we DON'T have junior manning...for us it's simply check-in. I have been notified of schedule changes, but it's always been minor things within my footprint...if they drop a turn at that point I still get paid. I don't have a problem with check-in in general, I just have a problem with check-in at mesa.

Sun Tzu's fundamental strategic principle: Plan not for what you THINK the enemy will do, plan for what he is CAPABLE of doing.

Applied to mesa: Assume any weakness in the contract will be FULLY expolited by the enemy. Of course none of you should have ANY doubt as to who the enemy is...

Mad Props, I don't think it could have been said any better.

At SKW our check in is 45 minutes before departure time but it is built into our pairings as duty time. As Rick said they can’t JR man us without our consent.

We must check in on a company computer at our domicile unless we have a trip that begins with a deadhead and we dropped the deadhead (we still get full pay for the DH) in order to make the trip commutable. Once we get to the airport were we are picking up the trip we then have to contact CS and inform them of our arrival. Also if we are running late we can call crew support, explain our situation, and they’ll check us in so we can head straight to the gate. In ATL our crew lounge is under concourse D and we park in B so CS allows us to always check in over the phone as long as we don’t abuse the privilege. I guarantee you that with JO you will never get this kind of flexibility so you need to protect yourself as much as possible.

Good luck guys and vote NO!!!!!!!!

I don't really have a problem with the check in, Jetblue does the same thing, 24hrs-3hrs before your show time you call crew voice press #2, enter employee number, pin, and #1, then done, took less than a minute.
I know you guys are thinking this all all evil and bad, its just to let the company know you are aware that you have a trip coming up, at the 3hr mark for us if we don't get checked in they call us if we don't respond they call out a reserve with a 2hr call out, flight still goes out on time.
Now that's what a good company does with it, what will mesa do with it:
They will use it to notify you that you have been reassigned to some different trip (this is now legal with your new contract, but your pay protected for all your flying so you may fly less and get paid more, great, you may fly the more and get paid the more [pay protected for the more now] if it goes past your original footprint you get 200% pay, cool stick it to JO!)
Crew Tracking is so far behind that there is no way they will JA you 24hrs out, let alone 4 days out on 4 day trip. It does not matter whether you check in or not, they are going to reassign you anyways its just gonna take more time, but the fact is your not gonna fly a flight that does not have your name on the release, so you might as well be notified of your trip as far in advanced as possible
One more thing to add to the list: FULL PAY FOR DHD!!!

MESA Pilots,

I can't believe your MEC has sent this out for a vote.

1. Deicing and not getting paid for it????!!!!!???? It is a fact that crews are "operating" the aircraft during the deicing phase. There are deicing checklists, switches to flip, and overall alot of responsibility to properly deice. GEEZ.....what are they thinking??!?!?!?!?!?!?:mad:

2. Two hour check-in? Sounds like the company wants you on their property so that they have more time to tinker with your schedule (i.e. Junior Man).:mad:

3. 2.1% pay increase AFTER 2 years??????!!!!! It's a known fact that salaries increases in general aren't keeping up with inflation.:mad:

4. No swaps / trades????!!!!!????

Good luck guys and gals. I'm sure I speak for the masses that your TA is garbage. Stand firm and send a message!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Why doesn't this practice violate rest rules? If you are obligated to contact the company to see if there is a change to your schedule, it becomes a "... present responsibility for duty, should the occasion arise". This should reset the rest clock. Does anyone know how airlines get this past the FAA? Seems like a brief reserve period to me.... What am I missing?

Unless I missed something, we would get paid for de-icing under the block or better provision.

No provision for repositions across the airport.

A big time NO from me, but wanted to clear up the de-ice thing. Block or better is the only improvement I see in this contract. The rest of the items are concessions.

SWA has 1 hour check in from a computer in each domecile's pilot lounge. No phone call, just an electronic way to ensure the entire crew is at the airport 1 hour before push.

He's getting the entire "no pay for deice" from Rick.

UAL is cracking down on out times as a way to reduce cost. Now they want to deice at the gate (meaning you don’t drop the brake until cleared for push) so they don't have the pay more in block cost and on-time bonuses. At outstations they don’t want us dropping the brake until cleared to taxi. This means that your Pre-Start, Engine Start and Pre-Taxi checklist are all done Pro Bono (although Pro Bono denotes “for the good of the public” and in this case it’s “for the good of UAL”). United actually has employees in the ramp towers tracking the out times and penalizing airlines for not adhering.

Bunch of freaking Nazi’s.

Then we should learn the AA taxi procedure.

Ha.Ha.Haaaaa......those AA guys have definitely mastered the art of the "Slow Roll." LOL! :)

I can't really believe this, if it were true UAL's D-0 would go to 1% and they would not want that either, plus you have to drop the brake to be pulled into the tug, and how would that conversation go with the chief pilot "um you guys blocked out before you pushed" Pilot: "Um yeah, we did."

It's United; they never make sense, they are one of the worst run airlines in America and yes they are doing this.

As far as the tug, they expect you to hook up after you get deiced. The way I see it, by doing this you seriously reduce your ability to takeoff within your HOT. So if everyone does exactly as UAL wants then they will see a rash of jets returning to the gate this winter for another load of Type I & IV. This will cost UAL far more than a few measly minutes here and there.

Reasons to vote NO on MESA TA
 

Fellow Professional MESA Airline Pilots,


Here are just a few of the many reasons to vote NO on this CONCESSIONARY TA:


NO pilot staffing requirements

NO Junior Assignment restrictions

Forced Self-Notification

NO increase in days off for line holders (2 days per yr.)

NO PBS protective language (parameter changes, etc.)

Scheduled or Actual tied to acceptance of PBS

Line Guarantee tied to acceptance of PBS

Training Bidding tied to acceptance of PBS

NO trip/duty rigs

NO pay increase for line holders

Insulting 2.1% FO pay increase not until 2010 (Inflation rate currently 4.9%)

Vacation, Leave of Absence or Non-Recurrent Training considered days off under prorate schedule

Ambiguous language remains

NO declining Standing/Displacement Awards

NO pay increase for volunteering on scheduled work day

Swaps and Trades limited to domicile

Stressfull and disruptive negotiations begin all over again in two years

Unbelievable term "Improper Assignments" actually in TA

Management ability to discontinue PBS at their leisure leaving us with NO improvements and even worse contract than we have now

Schedules not protected from change at any time

No guaranteed personal days (no-questions-asked instead of doctor's note, 6 occurence threat letters, etc.)


You have to look at what is missing! Nothing preventing one-day-on-one-day-off-one day-on, etc. schedules. Nothing preventing manipulation of PBS awards etc., etc.

Feel free to add more...

Now is the time to stand up and let the MEC, NC, and Management know what is important to us.

VOTE NO! SEND IT BACK!

Good Luck...
Winglet

This TA only brings Mesa pilots from low to lower. If you accept this, then what you are admitting is that this is all you are entitled to. If this is all you are entitled to, it's then really all you're worth.

The fact your MEC would even present this to the pilot demonstrates a level of fear and weakness that is hard to deny.

Best of luck guys/gals..............I'd ride J.O. into liquidation before I'd come anywhere near this thing.

Cant wait to see the vote.