Article-Smaller airlines' pilots have less ex
 

Some smaller airlines' pilots have less experience

February 13, 2009 - 7:40pm

By DAVID KOENIG
AP Airlines Writer
DALLAS (AP) - Pilots and co-pilots for smaller, feeder airlines such as Colgan Air generally earn lower salaries and start with less experience than their counterparts at the bigger mainline carriers.
The captain of Colgan Air Flight 3407 had 3 1/2 years of experience and nearly 3,400 flight hours at the regional airline; his co-pilot had been on the job barely a year.
By contrast, the average pilot at American Airlines has been there 18 years, according to FltOps.com, a financial-planning company for pilots.
Chesley Sullenberger, who guided his crippled US Airways jet to a safe landing on the Hudson River last month, has spent 28 years and logged nearly 20,000 flight hours at his airline.
It's unclear what role, if any, the Colgan crew's experience level played in Thursday night's crash near Buffalo, N.Y., which killed all 49 people on board and one on the ground. The cause of the crash had not been determined by Friday evening, although speculation centered on ice building up on the plane's wings.
But what is clear, experts say, is that flying for regional airlines can be a grueling existence and a sacrifice that many pilots make in hopes of moving up to a major airline where the pay and hours are better.
Beginning pay for a co-captain on a regional airline can be as low as $18,000 a year, according to Louis Smith, president of FltOps.com.
"You won't make a livable income until you get in the left (captain's) seat," Smith said. "Pilots accept this as part of the game, and the companies do it because they can."
Captains on regional airlines may earn far less than the passengers they ferry around the country every day, linking major airline hubs with smaller cities.
According to IAG, an airline industry research firm, Colgan captains make about $58,000 per year and first officers or co-pilots about $27,000.
Starting pay, however, can be much lower. Colgan advertised in late 2007 for a captain's job that paid $40 per flight hour for a guaranteed 75 hours a month _ or about $36,000 a year.
The average pilot at American Airlines makes more than $138,000 a year, according to American.
At regional carriers, "The pay is not as high, the planes are smaller, and they typically have some younger pilots who have less experience when they're hired," said Kit Darby, a former United Airlines captain.
Because they operate shorter flights, regional pilots work more days to meet their limit of about 83 flying hours per month. Darby, who runs AIR Inc., a career-advice service for pilots, said many are away from home 16 or 17 days per month.
Pilots at regionals are often hired with 2,000 hours of flight experience _ much less when pilots are in demand _ compared with 5,000 to 6,000 hours for new hires at the majors, experts said.
The Colgan job listing from 2007 called for captain's applicants to have 3,000 hours, including at least 1,000 in a multiengine plane _ meaning the airline was looking for an experienced pilot, not a hobbyist or recent graduate who would probably lack the experience on multiengine aircraft.
On its Web site Friday, Colgan said it was hiring first officers or co-pilots with 1,000 hours of flying time. But in a listing last month for a co-pilot, Colgan asked for as little as 600 hours of flight time.
Horizon Air, the regional affiliate of Alaska Airlines, requires 750 hours for new co-pilots; American Eagle, the regional sister to American Airlines, requires just 500 hours.
The captain of Flight 3407, Marvin Renslow, joined Colgan Air in September 2005, and co-pilot Rebecca Shaw had flown for Colgan just over a year. A third pilot who was off-duty but aboard the plane was hired by Colgan in September 2005.
Despite repeated requests, Pinnacle Airlines of Memphis, Tenn., the parent of Colgan Air, did not say how much experience the captain and co-pilot had before they joined Colgan, or where they were trained.
While they may begin with less experience than pilots at the major airlines, pilots for regional airlines become highly skilled by performing many takeoffs and landings in their short-hop flying and by dealing with all kinds of weather _ sometimes in the same day _ said Jack Jarvis, a former Piedmont Airlines captain.
"These guys are very experienced pilots and used to those conditions," said Jarvis, now the DC-9 chief pilot for cargo airline ABX Air Inc. "They've seen a lot of this stuff."
Years ago, most airline pilots came from the military. Now many are trained at specialized schools such as Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Daniel Webster College and the University of North Dakota, and there are flight schools that groom people for the cockpit in six months.
Flight 3407 was a Dash 8 Q400 turboprop made by Bombardier and put into service by Colgan last April. Bombardier spokesman John Arnone said the price, which was not disclosed, almost certainly included training Colgan's pilots on a simulator.
The smaller regional airlines used to be a stepping stone to better-paying jobs at the major airlines such as Delta, American and United. But since the terror attacks of 2001, that career path has been closed as the big airlines furloughed thousands of pilots.
According to FltOps.com, there are 3,100 pilots who have been furloughed at the major airlines and are waiting to be rehired, and another 930 at regional airlines. The job market for pilots is also crowded by nearly 4,000 pilots whose carriers have gone out of business.
That has forced some pilots to consider a career spent entirely at a regional carrier.
"Now lots of people at the regionals are senior pilots who like the lifestyle and aren't going anywhere," said Bill Swelbar, an airline industry researcher at MIT and a director at the parent of Hawaiian Airlines. "If I can live in my small town in Utah and fly for SkyWest, I'm pretty happy."

Well of course they usually have less experience. Experience usually means better jobs and more pay with better airlines.

This is like saying AA Baseball players are not as good as Major League players.

you could have had chuck yeager, sully, orville wright, al haines, and niel armstrong in that crew and it wouldnt have mattered. none of them have any training on a Q400. the media needs to realize that we are all trained to a point where we are determined to be safe to fly not just by the FAA but also our companies check airmen.

i saw an article similar to this awhile ago...smaller airlines pilots have less sex.

I'm really trying to hold back my anger right now ...

The media will do ANYTHING to twist something even this tragic into making into a story that grips people in fear. Damn them.

Horizon is a small airline, mainly by choice. However, the average captain at Horizon has more years in the industry than most captains and FO's a the majors. The average FO at Horizon is about 8 years, the average captain is about 18 years. To say that an FO at major has more experience because he/she is flying heavier metal just goes to show how uneducated the media is. We all know there is a lot of people that choose to stay at regional for the quality of life. If i live in Seattle and has been at Horizon for 20 years on top of the pay scale, why on earth would i accept and job with CAL to be based in EWR for $30per hour. This reporter seem really proud of him/herself, like they uncovered something new. I did like the fact that some more accurate numbers are out there like the average FO makes $18,000 instead of $40,000 that some other articles were claiming. We make less money at the regional level but to say you are here because you are inexperience is just stupid. This article failed to mention the fact that you could have 20 years at one company and if you want to go fly something bigger (if that's what you heart desire) then you have to do so a poverty level wages

yay, now the public knows. Thanks ALPA. Can I expect a 300% pay raise for my next check?? I can't wait. Stupid article meant to alarm people to never flying again. It's all relative, can someon ask that junior writer why an AA Captain doesn't fly for Colgan??? I can just imagine JOE Smoe looking for lights on Orbitz, honey that says operated by Mesa Airlines that sounds ****ty, let's not take it.

Hmm..I'm not sure how the topic shifted here but the article says pretty clearly that there is no correlation as of now, to the crew's qualifications.

It further states that "flying for regional airlines can be a grueling existence and a sacrifice that many pilots make" and "These guys are very experienced pilots and used to those conditions".

What I'm reading here is that regional pilots do the same job, if not more, than a legacy carrier that may spend 8 hours aloft during 1 leg. I noticed the article after receiving a few calls from friends with similar questions this week.

Now we all know that the profession has taken a serious and sad decline as companies constantly cut 'operational' costs, but who did they negotiate with? Probably not you just starting out but rather a 'brother' leaving in a few short years. Interesting how even when something is top heavy, the bottom still gets shaved.

"Pilots accept this as part of the game, and the companies do it because they can."

I know what you are saying and in your current state of mind(knowing these folks who perished), I can see your point. I do however think this article was less about scaring people and more about educating them. There were quite a few positive things said as well also pointing out reasonable estimates on our payscales. I'm sure a 10 year FO at American would feel differently, the average $138k was a little far fetched. I am sure they are lumping capt's with fo's. Anyhow, take time to breathe for yourself. You're spending a lot of time on here based on your posts. Get together with some friends talk about these wonderful people who are no longer with us. My best to everyone.

I don't think there are any/many 10 year FOs at American

Don't forget all the furloughed guys that were gone in late 2001 and the TWA mess. The cuts went way deeper than 1999 (which would make them a 10 year FO as of now)...so the numbers might not be that far off.

Considering it's an "average"..with such a tilted pay scale (15+ year FOs...20+ year captains) i bet 138K is pretty close.

Uh, pretty sure there are. Back in '06, I spoke to an AA pilot who had been in the right seat for 22 years, and had finally upgraded in the Super 80...

First of all, I think all the american guys on furlough were all TWA. Second of all, there are not any pilots at American with 1-4 years of expierence because they haven't hired since the 90's. Third of all, if the regionals paid more than the majors the regionals would have the most expierenced pilots, cause nobody would leave. Without saying anything about the colgan crew, if the pax want more expierence maybe they should only fly on airlines that pay thier pilots well.

Alright. Let's clear up some bad info being put out here.

1. There are lots and lots of 10+ year FOs at AA. It takes a lot longer than that to make Captain. AA has a VERY stagnant crew force with very little upward movement. There are still 1900+ AA pilots on furlough.

2. Not all AA furloughees were ex-TWA. About 1000 were "native" AA. There are FOs at AA that have been on furlough for 7 1/2 years now, with no end in sight for another 4-5 years due to new age 65 rule.

3. AA was hiring until management stopped classes in Sep 2003 and started furloughing.

4. A 10 year 737 FO makes about $99k a year flying a 75 hour month. A 12 yr 777 FO makes about $125k flying a 75 hour month.


IMHO, the flying public doesn't give half a hoot about the experience level in the cockpit, only the price of the ticket.

....................oops

Thanks for clearing that up :rolleyes: Someone missed my point, oh wait everyone missed my point.

The article wasn't so bad or specifically trying to scare people. That was the point.

If you've been watching CNN at all over the past 2 days you'd understand that wasn't directed at this thread per say. The media are friggin idiots and that don't know what they're talking about and will say anything to engage the listener.

Yeah I've been posting a lot. It makes me feel better. Been talking to a lot of friends/family/coworkers as well. Thank you for your concern though :)

"I believe it is an established maxim in morals that he who makes an assertion without knowing wheter it is true of false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him."
-President Abraham Lincoln


I have flown with the gamut in part 121 pilots, from the 30, 000 hour old crusties to the 300 hour wonders.

The difference?

29, 700 more opportunities to make mistakes and learn from them...

He seems shocked that the Colgan crew had not spent decades with the airline. Does he forget that everbody has to start somewhere? We can't all show up with 25yrs of experience and 20,000hrs ready to go, unfortunately.

Right the heck on! How many hours did Mr. Sullenberg start with? Zero. We have to get the experience somehow, and the flying public yowls when tickets cost more, and scream when something bad eventually happens.

Oh, then they get in their cars and smoke, talk on the cell phone, cut people off, and generally endanger themselves, other drivers, and pedestrians. But that's OK, because cars good. Airplanes bad.

Not sure which majors you are referring to, but you're wrong about the experience level.

That said, I know there are many highly experienced pilots at the regionals.

This reporter mostly got it right. I hope the flying public finally understands what most of us here know (whether you are experienced enough to understand it yet or not): Regional pilots are less experienced than those at the majors/legacy/big boys. Most of the time, I don't think it matters much since the autopilot works well with an inexperienced pilot as well as with an experienced pilot. The issues come when there are emergencies and when headwork comes into play. Pilots that are willing to fly severely fatigued the way many regional pilots are forced obviously don't know enough yet to know better. You can flame away regional guys, but I know that young pilots always think they are better than they really are.

Maybe the flying public will start demanding airlines to hire experienced pilots. Not likely, but maybe. If so, the scope issues you guys at the big boys complain about would be fixed since the regionals would have to disappear.

From all that I've read, it turns out people like their pilots seasoned by things like military flying. Now the question is whether or not they will pay for it.

You are ridiculous and have no idea what you're talking about. You obviously don't have any experience with 121 flying. I also find if funny when you say "maybe the flying public will start demanding airlines to hire experienced pilots". Since when did the public have ANY influence on who the airlines hire? Never have and never will. It's all about da money honey. ha ha...you just made my day with that one.
Ugh. I can't believe I just spent 2 minutes of my life responding to your ignorant and pointless statement. barf...go away.

Everybody wants a free lunch
 

If so, they will want those pilots to have gained that experience flying other people around, or maybe flying an empty airplane for a few thousand hours, at someone else's expense. :rolleyes:

Never? It was clearly at least a matter for consideration at one point.

Of course, that was also when the majors were hiring wet-ink private pilots for the other seats as long as they had a college degree. What's old is new again, I suppose.

How about the Airlines start charging people the true cost of a ticket how about the airlines stop eroding our QOL and Pay.. I can go on and on but I am still upset over current events..

You are a TOOL go AWAY

You are resurrecting the ever-present debate on APC on how to determine a pilot's experience, what they should fly and how much they should be paid.

Granted some younger less experienced guys may freeze up behind the controls during an emergency but so may guys with 10 years at an airline. You may find some younger guys who in 1000-2000 hours of flying have had a few emergencies or maybe an incident or accident. Some guys may fly their entire career and never bend an airplane or have an emergency.

If you get the opportunity to fly for a 121 carrier you will find out quickly that it is nothing more than a group of sleepy pilots. We do not always operate while severely fatigued. We do often fly fatigued but that just comes with the job. Guys are not trying to be heroes and are not necessarily being unsafe by flying fatigued. Part of being a professional pilot is being able to operate under adverse conditions and being fatigued is one of them. It has nothing to do with experience or hours. Tired pilots are everywhere!

I'm a young pilot and I'll be the first to tell you that I'm a moron. I do not want to be a hero and I do not try to do things out of my capable range. I like the many of the others in the "younger" pilot generation am just try to make a humble living. I studied hard during training and learned the airplane the best I could and I use what stick and rudder skills I have to do a half way decent job at operating the thing.

If I sound like I'm just a flaming, inexperienced regional guy, don't worry, I know I am, however I go to work everyday do a decent job and tell a few jokes, most of all I pride myself in not being an ass like a lot of guys out there who have something to prove.

The regional/commuter airlines historically hire low time/experience guys. This is nothing new. The culture has significantly changed and the definition of low time has changed as well. Training, aircraft design and CRM has allowed this culture shift. The fact that we still have guys ranting around about "these damn kids bringin' down the industry" is just creating more pilot disunity. It is getting old.

That's my rant for the month. Time for charge my Ipod and buy some more hair gel.:cool:

Oh come on you know that was a dumb statement and I can't figure out why you're trying to stand up to this tool. That "proof" you gave us in the link was a simple marketing idea. That's it.

While I can see your point I dont think it will make much sense since there are a few varibles that need to be looked at. Number One, military aviators are staying in the military longer and flying less. In the 70's returning military aviators would come home from Vietnam with thousands of hours of combat time and would have that gray haired experience. Now the military is cutting back flying to a minimum to keep within there budgets. Number Two, young airline pilots who got hired within the last few years at the regionals come in all shapes and sizes. Some are two hundred hour wonders from Jet University and others spent several years working on the licenses and instructor certificates while getting a college degree, and then there are some with a few thousand hours and have a few gray hairs. It still doesnt matter though because we all go through the same training program and the same PC's and Oral exams. If we dont pass we are kicked out, if we do pass we then go onto OE and then start our real experience building. We all have to start somewhere. Number Three, Back in the 60's and 70's, Major Airlines like Northwest, American, United, and Delta would hire off the street guys with just there Commerical Multi-engine. In fact they youst to advertise in magazines about becoming a airline pilot in just a few months and flying a 727 right off the bat. Now in todays world we get hired off the street to a regional and are flying Saabs, Dash's, CRJ's,ERJ's, and ATR's. So I dont find the argument about us not getting experience because what happened to the guys flying the 727's and 737's back in the day. They too had to gain experience and so will we.
Rant Over back to spongebob with the kids.

-Farva

Most of the flying public does not care about the experience level of the pilot as long as the price is right. They will either take that plane or spend 17 hours trying to get from NY to ORD. They know that flying is very safe to begin with, to be concerned about experienced pilots is to be worried about crashing which is probably the last thing a pax expects when they step into an airplane.

We all have to start somewhere, they Doc in ER who is responsible for saving your life after a major accident gets 15K per year and sleeps in a hospital bunk on call 12 hours a day. Same principle.

I'm a regional Captain with 16,000 hours and 30 years flying experience. Learned to fly as a teenager. There are HUNDREDS senior to me at my airline.

Where do me and the rest of the wide-eyed kids at my company fit into your neat little declaration ?

Apparently the Saab 340 is now a jet airplane according to NBC news...they were trying to show how the captain didn't have a lot of experience in "props"

Seems we are all taking this a bit too personally. We all know the media is out of touch with reality. The public perception however, can mean a lot.

I know there are many very experienced pilots at the regional airlines, (I was one of them). But, if the public believes that the "big" airplanes have more qualified pilots, and we can get them to pay for it, it would have to open up opportunities for us all.

Who cares what someone else thinks about you, it's all about what they believe you're worth.

I'm pretty sure I addressed you in the post. Reread it. Thanks for proving my point.

Or military pilots or pilots that have experience in the cargo world...

Why am I a tool? My statement calls for the flying public to pay for more experienced pilots to fly them around. I do agree that the flood of cheap labor in the airline industry has brought down the industry. If the public demanded the experience and expertise that I suggested, it would require the pay and QOL to increase in order to attract those types of pilots.

guys, whether we like it or not the Media will be all over "low-time" pilots and this unfortunate crash. The CA had 110 hrs in type if I read correctly, that is not a lot of time, and from what I understand this was the crews FIRST winter in the 121 world, or at least the CA's winter flying with Colgan was limited becuase he was IAH based on the SAAB?

This is what the Media is spewing out there, their job is to sell advertisement not be responsible segways of information to the public. The same thing may have happened to 20,000hr pilots, not setting flaps for T/O, trying to land in a T-storm (KLIT), bad things happen to both inexperienced and experienced pilots, but if the MEDIA can run with a story about how inexperienced these two where (there time was relatively low, like it or not) that's what they will report............

Like I mentioned earlier, anything short of a mid-flight collision (hell, even Excel air guys are being blamed) the BLAME will always lay with the pilot because there is too much MONEY to be lost if fault is found elsewhere.............

hahahah, that must be my problem!! But I'm furloughed so what does that mean for me??!?!

All the blame and none of the compensation; ahhh it's good to be a scapegoat....err, pilot.:rolleyes:

It could have been worse............


Giraldo could have done a special on low time pilots!!

seriously, and the sad thing is, if these pilots are found at fault, and they where lucky enough to survive...........................LAWSUITS out the waahzoo.................disgraceful............... .