Q400 ADC or SPS Failure?
02-18-2009 | 03:07 PM
#12
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While we have all be enlightened in the last couple days about tailplane icing/stall we need to put that subject to rest. Tailplane stalls do not activate the shaker and certainly do not create a rapid pitch up. This accident does not involve tailplane icing/stall
02-18-2009 | 04:07 PM
#13
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From: A320
Finally, someone supports the discussion of this tragedy. This is very respectful speculation in which there is a total difference from the crap you hear on the news and from people around that have no aviation knowledge. Seriously we have the basic information about the accident, we all have a pretty good understanding of aerodynamics and these sorts of flight conditions as well as the fact that we know pilots best. I think this kind of constructive discussion may be quite beneficial.
As long as we stay mature, professional, and respectful I can't see any reason why speculation couldn't lead to a better understanding for us as flight crews.
As long as we stay mature, professional, and respectful I can't see any reason why speculation couldn't lead to a better understanding for us as flight crews.
02-18-2009 | 04:16 PM
#14
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From: Engines Turn or People Swim
02-18-2009 | 06:47 PM
#15
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From: retired
All great points.
Just to clarify the difference between shaker and pusher...
Just to clarify the difference between shaker and pusher...
I've seen countless pilots fight the pusher when activated and you in essence create an extreme PIO with pitch attitudes ranging from plus 40 to minus 30.
Doesn't this generally happen when a crew, recovering from stick shaker has added full power/thrust and pitched up too aggressively thus begining the PIO cycle you describe?
I guess the machine still had enough tail authority to rotate to 31 ANU after pusher activation.
..if you're in the comfy world of flying an approach and suddenly the pusher goes off and throws the yolk forward, what would be your first instinct? Most likely to pull back and protect altitude. Its also what airlines train for.
Airlines and other operators train for stick shaker recoveries to minimize altitude loss. (On a low base to final turn stick shaker activation they wouldn't want to aggravate the altitude loss by pushing forward)
Most airlines don't have you lose altitude in a stall situation, they want you to maintain altitude and use power and proper pitch to accelerate. See a problem with flying how you train?
Doesn't this generally happen when a crew, recovering from stick shaker has added full power/thrust and pitched up too aggressively thus begining the PIO cycle you describe?
I guess the machine still had enough tail authority to rotate to 31 ANU after pusher activation.
..if you're in the comfy world of flying an approach and suddenly the pusher goes off and throws the yolk forward, what would be your first instinct? Most likely to pull back and protect altitude. Its also what airlines train for.
Airlines and other operators train for stick shaker recoveries to minimize altitude loss. (On a low base to final turn stick shaker activation they wouldn't want to aggravate the altitude loss by pushing forward)
Most airlines don't have you lose altitude in a stall situation, they want you to maintain altitude and use power and proper pitch to accelerate. See a problem with flying how you train?
02-18-2009 | 06:54 PM
#16
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From: CA
02-19-2009 | 08:15 AM
#17
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From: Engines Turn or People Swim
We are trained to react to the shaker, not the pusher...the shaker is a warning of an imminent stall, and most turbine airplanes can power out of that without losing altitude. They train on us the assumption that the most likely scenario is a shaker, and that we will not get to a real stall.
Statistically this is not an unreasonable approach...there are more shaker activations than pusher activations (I even had a shaker myself as NFP, with 30 hours in a turbojet).
If you go through the shaker and get the pusher, you would then need to fall back on basic flying skills.
Statistically this is not an unreasonable approach...there are more shaker activations than pusher activations (I even had a shaker myself as NFP, with 30 hours in a turbojet).
If you go through the shaker and get the pusher, you would then need to fall back on basic flying skills.
02-19-2009 | 08:23 AM
#18
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We are trained to react to the shaker, not the pusher...the shaker is a warning of an imminent stall, and most turbine airplanes can power out of that without losing altitude. They train on us the assumption that the most likely scenario is a shaker, and that we will not get to a real stall.
Statistically this is not an unreasonable approach...there are more shaker activations than pusher activations (I even had a shaker myself as NFP, with 30 hours in a turbojet).
If you go through the shaker and get the pusher, you would then need to fall back on basic flying skills.
Statistically this is not an unreasonable approach...there are more shaker activations than pusher activations (I even had a shaker myself as NFP, with 30 hours in a turbojet).
If you go through the shaker and get the pusher, you would then need to fall back on basic flying skills.
02-19-2009 | 06:49 PM
#19
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From: retired
02-19-2009 | 07:17 PM
#20
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From: Dreamniner
I must have some bad stall mojo in the sim because my sim partner in initial probably got the pusher about 4 or 5 times. Then when I was in for recurrent, the captain also doing recurrent got the pusher on his first stall. Then I got it on my first stall.
Or maybe the sim just sucks.
Or maybe the sim just sucks.
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