ILS Training
 

I am currently the training officer for a small 135 outfit in North Texas. We recently finished a recurrent training course for all of our pilots. During the course of the training I was explaining how to identify the final approach fix on an ILS:
Final approach fix=glide slope intercept at the published altitude on the approach plate (lightning bolt)
One of our pilots insists that the FAF on the ILS is glide slope intercept no matter what your altitude, in other words if you intercept the glideslope 20 miles out at 5000 feet, that is your final approach fix.

He also insists that this is the way he was taught at two of his previous employers, one of them being American Eagle.

Is this how American Eagle and other airlines, regional or otherwise, teach final approach fix on an ILS?

Any comments are welcome,
IJ

So would that also mean that he would configure for landing 20 miles out? What a tool, I honestly don't think this guy ever flew 121, otherwise he would know better.

You are correct, GS + GS Intercept ALT = FAF. This is cut and dry.

Well, it also depends on the capabilities of the aircraft. If you can't descend on the glideslope and slow down for configuration, then you can indeed start to configure 20 miles out. That being said, if you slow to your final approach speed at 20 miles out, you will absolutely guaranteed get torn a new one by ATC.

Well....it seems we have one vote for the guy being "a tool" and one vote for the guy being "cut and dry".
Can either of you provide igbyjet a reference?

USMCFLYR

No...GS @ GS Int. Alt end of story. That allows the use of time for determining the MAP if you lose GS inside the FAF. If you use an arbitrary intercept altitude to determine the FAF then you cannot use time to determine MAP GS/InOp.

They are both saying the same thing. JetJock is saying that the FAF is located at the published GS intercept-altitude (presumably you are on the GS by that point), which is correct.

I think somebody must not have been paying attention in Eagle ground school :rolleyes:

Probably a 300 hr wonder when he got hired. Wasn't Eagle doing that for a while recently...kind of like the 300 hr wonder I flew with at Mesa that told me he wish he had more x-wind experience while learning to fly, while acting as my FO.:eek:

This reminds me of an instrument stage check I had. I flew the ILS exactly as published, and intercepted the glideslope at the published intercept altitude.

I passed the checkride, but afterwards my examiner asked me, "why wouldn't you have just intercepted the glideslope at 3,000 since that's where we were when we intercepted the localizer? (glide slope intercept was 2,700). I was confused as to the reason he was asking me... I think I said something like, "because the approach says the GS intercept altitude is 2,700." Then he went off about how you can intercept it from any altitude, and it doesn't say anywhere that you have to be at the GS intercept altitude.

I didn't want to argue with him, especially since I passed, but I thought he was incorrect.

Here it is cut and dry folks. You may join the glide slope at a higher or even lower altitude then published GS INT altitude. But remember this, you are not inside the final approach fix until passing throught that alt. Why does that matter? Because if the weather falls below mins and youre inside the FAF you may continue. If you are not inside the FAF (above published intercept alt but on GS) and the weather falls below mins you must go missed as by part 121. Any AE pilot would know that. This dude is clueless

Pilot Contoller Glossary:

FINAL APPROACH FIX- The fix from which the final approach (IFR) to an airport is executed and which identifies the beginning of the final approach segment. It is designated on Government charts by the Maltese Cross symbol for nonprecision approaches and the lightning bolt symbol for precision approaches; or when ATC directs a lower-than-published glideslope/path intercept altitude, it is the resultant actual point of the glideslope/path intercept.

Notice, the PCG mentions where the FAF is if ATC clears you to intercept the glidepath below the published Glideslope Intercept Altitude. However, it does not mention if they clear you the approach and you are above the published Glideslope Intercept Altitude.

In this case, you *should* fly the approach (using non-precision methods) to comply with published minimum, maximum, or hard altitudes --- the Glideslope may not comply with these restrictions. Additionally, the gideslope at most airfields is only good (and flight checked) to a distance of 10NM. If you intercept the glideslope from a high altitude, you run the risk of intercepting a false glideslope.

-Fatty

He may have been referring to this without knowing it. He may have meant to say final approach segment. Think in terms of visibility and when you can continue the approach. At ORD, they will sometimes put you on a 20 mile final and the visibility could be rapidly changing. Lets say you are on that 20 mile final and the vis goes to zero. Can you continue the approach? Yes you can if you are on that approach final segment.

As far as the FAF, I think the previous guy is correct when he said its the intersection of the final approach course and the FAF altitude...depicted by that little lightning bolt.

I hope I'm not spreading incorrect info...someone correct me if I'm wrong. I've been out of the 121 world for about a month already!

FAA-H-8261-1 Instrument Procedures Handbook

that and cross country time...

well you can intercept the glideslope and follow it down from any assigned altitude. there is no reason to always go down to the published alt. it is jsut a matter of establishing a point in space where your FAF is and that point would be at the alt published and glideslope.
IJ

Just to add, there are a few approaches where, if one intercepts the glideslope prior to the published intercept location, the aircraft will be below mandatory minimum crossing altitudes. I believe LAX and CVG have approaches that have this characteristic.

Correct...and I believe the ILS 4R into ORD is one of these cases as well. You can absolutely follow the GS outside the FAF, just be sure that you are at or above those hard altitudes. I think you miss one or two of the outer hard altitudes by a couple hundred feet if you strictly follow the GS.

I have to disagree to the timing. You do not fly an ILS to a time reference. Nor would starting the time at GS intercept work as this is typically prior to the LOC only FAF. If I am inside the FAF for an ILS and I lose GS, I am executing a missed approach. I was not cleared for the LOC approach. I did not brief a LOC approach. I will miss the approach, confer with ATC, and either return for the LOC only approach, an entirely different approach, or I will divert to my alternate. Of course if I were in an emergency situation, all bets are off and I might well consider a loc only approach. As for time, I call for time to start over the outer marker or FAF, not at GS intercept

As you guys pointed out, the Glideslope does not guarantee altititude restrictions outside the FAF. Additionally, it may not be flight tested (you may get interferrence or abnormal indications). Don't confuse being told to join the localizer with an approach clearance. If you are arming the ILS to follow the localizer inbound to meet the alititude restrictions, I would say you are in violation because the aircraft isn't going to stop at the FAF altitude (remember, you weren't cleared the approach). At my company, we don't arm the ILS unless you are cleared the approach.

-Fatty

He was correct. In fact, either way is correct. However, it is more proper to intercept the glideslope at your current altitude rather than to take a step-down approach to it. It is more fuel efficient and safer to a degree.

The altitudes on the chart are minimum altitudes unless specified as otherwise (may be a line shown above and/or below the altitude). You don't have to be at every stepdown altitude, just as long as you are above each altitude. You have to be pretty high on a localizer to get a false glideslope (6 and 9 degrees? not sure). Besides the ILS is guaranteed out to 18nm. 35 degrees either side out to 10nm, 10 degrees out to 18nm.

What he said is correct IF the controller didn't issue something to the contrary, i.e. 'maintain 2700 until established,' in which case he expects you to start your descent (if required) immediately.

If the controller says, 'maintain at or above 2700 until established' by all means intercept at 4000' or whatever and follow the glideslope down. The fact remains: FAF is at a fixed geographic location at a fixed altitude. It doesn't move around.

That is not for the ILS, that is for the localizer beam. The GS has a different footprint, I think somebody said ten miles.

Be aware that some ILS's have coverage far exceeding the standard mins...if ATC clears you to intercept the LOC 25NM out, then that LOC is good to at least 25NM.

Sound practice, but it is technically allowed per regs (but not by all airlines) to follow the GS down before being cleared for the ILS as long as you verify that you make all crossing restrictions

I agree, brief one approach, conduct that approach. no timing on an ILS.

You're right, I stand corrected:

"The glide slope is normally usable to the distance of 10 NM. However, at some locations, the glide slope has been certified for an extended service volume which exceeds 10 NM." AIM 1-1-9(d3)

Completely agree. My school tries to teach otherwise. I don't subscribe to that logic. If the GS goes dead on the ILS, I'm going missed and will try the LOC ONLY approach a second time around.

Converting an ILS to a LOC on the fly is an old-school GA concept, once you get into turbine flying you will not be doing that :rolleyes:

Ayep...an ILS is a very different animal at 145 knots with 50+ lives behind you. Leave the multiple-approaches for your GA-ops!

Bottom line is always safety!!! Not only were you not cleared for the LOC Approach but winging the new approach during this critical phase is DEADLY!

What's that saying? "There are 2 types of pilots, old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots."

Wasn't there some issues in CVG about intercepting the glide slope and riding it all the way down? I believe the glideslope isn't the same as some of the step downs altitudes.

This was causing traffic conflicts with the parallel runways? I can't remember the details exactly...

Yep...I think we touched upon that ;) LoL

and that is why a lot of people think of timing on an ILS, a lot of us had it pounded during inst rating to always run the time, so if you lose GS your still ok,( works in the cessna) however like you said not allowed in this 121 world. I too would go missed and come back for the loc approach after briefing it, however, i still occasionally when doing NFP duties and building an approach, sometimes find myself dialing in the countdown clock, old habit...lol

Don't you always anticipate a worst case scenario? What are the odds of losing the most critical engine exactly at V1 but how many times do you still do it in the sim? The point is to plan for worst case despite the odds. Regardless of 121 vs. 61. ga vs. airlines...setting the timer is just one more option...its not like it takes alot of effort/resources. Going missed is the obvious decision upon losing glide slope on an ILS but if im in a gs/inop worst case scenario type of situation, im gonna continue on the loc...its just one more option until i run out. as marge schott used to say... "Smoke 'em if ya got 'em"

I agree with your thinking. Starting a timer does not take much effort or time and if an emergency situation arises inside the FAF and you lose the GS, (I know, highly unlikely but still....) you have an additional chance to get down.

Sure but you weren't "cleared" for the LOC approach.............this is why it's nice to get Block or Better .............just go missed and make a few more bucks.

True, though the key phrase was "in an emergency situation". But I do see both sides, just my .02

True, in an ES it all goes out the window.

also, out of radar coverage, with no dme or other map on the localizer part of the chart, if you do lose the glideslope halfway down, you won't know where you are if you don't have a timer going. you might not want to turn too early on the missed approach!

i also wanted to point out: one of your pilots is wrong.

I could swear I was taught "cleared for the ILS" entails shooting the ILS or LOC approach. If shooting an ILS in IMC my brief normally includes "backup timing if we need to transition to the LOC is xxx." I don't recall ever specifically asking for the LOC only approach.