A simple anonymous email to every company in the media industry, pointing them to these forums and even maybe some specific posts would get your ideas across nicely, for better or worse? I guess we should all be careful what we wish for when dealing with them though, they're a slimy bunch!


Yes the majors are getting scr**ed as well, I'm sorry to see that - it's not the dream job that I've always wished for anymore. However, I think i'd take a paycut over a job cut, especially as I was already on the breadline when I did have one. I may need to 'see the bigger picture' but right now my little sketch hurts just enough thanks.

Note: This is not a personal attack on gettinbumped, just a statement.

Everyone is hurting. I think the point of the thread was to try and help everyone as a united front by making the public more aware, not to tell someone that they are struggling more than the next person.

I'd love an example of how ALPA is "helping me" hoss. I'll compare the degradation of my contract over yours in the past 8 years any day of the week.

Let's just all face it. ALPA is neutered by the RLA. If you want to say that ALPA is not worth the money, I'll enter that discussion, but look around at the ALPA Mainline contracts. You aren't going to see any ALPA miracles at your expense.

A reasonable post, and I take no offense. I've been where you are. I took a pay cut from Flight Instructing to take my first airline job. Made $9000 that year, before taxes! The ONLY reason I did that was because I figured I was "paying my dues" to make it to the majors. I got lucky and got on before the walls crumbled. I have absolutely no problem with regional folks wanting to improve their lot in life.... I say good on ya! I'm behind you 100%. But the post that I was responded to made it sound like ALPA was just fat catting all us major guys at the expense of the poor regionals. History simply doesn't bare that argument out; in fact its insulting to those of us who have taken a 50% pay cut and watched half our airline disappear, while more and more RJ's are flying with our colors on them.

Here's where you and I diverge. My job isn't worth another pay cut. I've had enough. Our contract is due next year, and without substantial working conditions, pay increases and job protections, I'm voting no. If it comes time to strike, I'll be out there holding a sign all day every day. If it means we shut the doors, then so be it. I'll go foreclose on my condo, start over in another line of work, whatever. At some point we have to all say that this we've had ENOUGH of getting railroaded.

If that occurs, there will be a lot of regional pilots who lose their jobs as well. If you fly for a regional, your company has hitched a large part of its fortune to the major who is painted on your tail. My apologies for that, but at some point the profession is worth more than us as individuals. The attitude that there is no bottom of pay that we are willing to fly for is part of what has driven our plight so low. Do you realize that 30 years ago a guy in my position could buy a new Cadillac with a months pay? That would be over $50k in todays dollars. I make 1/5th of that now. Unacceptable.

I'm going to throw this out there for anyone who is still reading this. I bear no ill feelings towards regional folks. I'm a product of the same system, and the more years you have in the industry the more you learn about its workings. It's not a function of being smart, it's a function of being around long enough to experience the crap that inevitably flows downhill. You can read it and think about it, or discard it as a bitter "old" guy who is over the hill - doesn't matter to me. Stick around this biz long enough and you will learn it for yourself. It's also entirely possible I'm full of crap and have no idea what I'm talking about:

The problem we have in this industry is that there is a lot of pilot on pilot crime, hence my reason for originally responding to "ALPA is only interested in the majors and screwing the regionals." Just so you remember, WE (the collective WE; you and I, are ALPA. We all have a sense of entitlement. Trouble is, that sense of entitlement is worth exactly as much as the keyboard I'm writing this on. Those of you who are flying in the right seat of that brand new (bigger and bigger) RJ after 1 whole year in the industry think that you have a right to that plane, and a right for your company to get more of them so you can get to the left seat. It's not a dig; I had the same feelings when ALPA railroaded age 65 down our throats despite the survey showing the majority of ALPA members didn't share that desire. As I got bumped from the 767 last month, I was surely ****ed because I felt I had a right to that seat, and it had been stolen from me.

The simple truth is, we are only entitled to what we can negotiate. And we can only negotiate successfully by sticking together. The majors aren't letting you fly that 50 seat RJ around because its more efficient. Hell, there isn't much out there that's LESS efficient than that. They claim its because the demand isn't there to fly a mainline jet. Ummm.... instead of flying 3 RJ's, fly 1 Guppy. They are having you fly that plane because they know you will do it for less money, and less trouble than we will. And when you stand up to demand for more to do it, they'll just find someone else to fly the same plane for less. Unless we ALL stand together in the profession and look past just what is best for us personally, we will continue to spiral to the bottom.

So here is the takeaway from this post. When I walk into the ORD employee cafeteria and I see a guy with an E170 sticker on his flight bag that says "Guppy Killer" (true story), I know we are in for a long ride. I didn't say anything to the guy, but I really wanted to go up and tell him "I already have my job, so who is the real loser here when you fly that sticker?". I just don't get it.

Re-read your post again, and you are correct in the last sentence. This thread has been hijacked from its original point, probably by me. I'll sign off now and let it get back on target, though my intent wasn't to infer that I was struggling more than you, or anyone at the regional level... as I mentioned, I've been there, and it's horrific working conditions. As this is a Regional board, I was just trying to point out that assertion that ALPA is taking care of the Majors at your expense is just, well, wrong.

One last thing. If I were coming out of flight school now I simply wouldn't be in this business. Trust me on this, it's not enough to love to fly. Those feelings fade with time. Truth be told, you won't have any more fun in an airplane (at least in a commercial setting) than you are right now. Enjoy the heck out of it, because it becomes "just a job" before you know it.

i apologize for being rude... and i'll admit your QOL has suffered tremendously and ours is already at rock bottom. I just dont feel like any of us are whining here, not that you implied that.

excellent post and i invite you to continue in the discussion. I think we've determined that ALPA is essentially worthless and primarily exists to feed itself and that the ONLY thing thats going to improve our profession is solidarity.

i do believe regional carriers should have a separate union as our goals and realistic expectations are vastly different. i also believe it to be a conflict of interest when the union represents a carrier like delta and a regional like comair.

what scares me is that when the youngsters (i say that sort of tongue and cheek as im only in my late twenties) see a plane like the CRJ1000 initial thoughts tend to gravitate more towards an inflated ego. little thought is given to the damage flying an aircraft that size for 20 bucks an hour does to our profession. and i know if i was to refuse to fly my plane for $30 there’s 50 people behind me that would do it for $10. and i wouldn’t be too terribly surprised if some would do it for free. every profession has interns :)

id be pressed to find another single profession that's seen such a dramtic decline in both working conditions and pay; and a union thats let it happen. forgot to give some credit to the RLA as well.

No apology necessary. I like that you are passionate about improving your QOL and pay at your airline. We can use more like you for the cause!

Ahhhh yes... you GET IT! That is refreshing for someone who is starting in this industry. Well, I assume that from your Position listed. Great to see that the Shiny Jet Syndrome is understood by some in the Regional ranks. It's terribly enticing, and I certainly understand why some fall victim to it's siren song. I think the best we can do is try to encourage that young man/woman to see that the risk/work required to operate that CRJ1000 safely is worth waaayyyyyy more than that $20/hr that is being offered. And you are exactly right, that right behind that guy/gal is someone who will do it for $10! Don't know the solution to that, but I'll admit that as the pay goes lower and lower, and the options for long term stability and success in the industry get bleaker and bleaker, the talent will start to wane. This worries me. Hopefully the public will start to start to put pressure on our companies to demand that the best and brightest wind up in our cockpits. The only way to ensure that is to compensate us adequately. This is why I think its so hugely important what Sulley/Skiles are doing right now; using their celebrity to further our cause. Good on em. We all owe them a debt.

Interesting thoughts on separate unions for Regionals vs. Majors. I can see both sides. In some ways our goals are truly different, in others, we are forever entwined as professional pilots no matter what we fly, or where we fly it to. ALPA has disappointed me a few times in the past couple of years, sometimes severely. Age 65 was handled atrociously, at least in my opinion. I can't BELIEVE that ALPA did not publicly endorse President Obama during this last election. I can't think of anyone on EARTH who would be more detrimental to the piloting profession that Senator McCain, based on his past performance. At the same time, I'm understanding that ALPA is severely hampered on both a local and national level by the inequality of the negotiating field of the RLA. We all suffer under this insane structure. Hopefully our new administration will do more to recognize the value of the incredibly safe travel experience we all provide.

Did this really happen to you? Or did you hear about it from a friend who heard about it from a friend that this really truly pinky swear actually happened to. If it did happen to you do me a favor the next time you see one get out your cell phone camera and snap a picture of it and post it here along with dates and times. People claim to see these stickers "all the time" but nobody can seem to produce any proof that they exist. I'm not calling you a liar I would just like to see one since I've spent plenty of time in the ORD break room and other RAH bases and have yet to see one of these stickers. I DID however see a couple of Go Jet guys wearing ALPA lanyards at Flight Safety. THAT is a true story.

For the record. I in no way meant to demean your plight with the majors, it's been extremely tough and I understand and agree with you're point of view.

My response of 'i'd rather have a pay cut than a job cut' was probably not in line with my true feelings. I made myself out to be one of those notorious folks who would undercut others for the sake of a job, this is not the case. I believe we all should be back to the pay scales and have the QOL that was prevalent in the 'good ol' days' and our contract needs fighting for, not undercutting.

Airplane chasing and the associated ego attached to those flying a shiny jet is pure craziness. There should be pay in line with experience / proficiency and while I cannot see a way to stop market forces, the devaluation of our skills through 'pilot price wars' needs to end. My father (a major cptn) has impressed upon me from the beginning of my professional aviation career how easy the industry is (for 'is' read 'was a year ago') in comparison to his day and age, his favorite saying 'I would have given my left testicle just to fly a multi, let alone a jet with your kind of experience' is testament to that.

So anyway, back to how we can enlighten the rest of the world and better our lives.