Commuter Hell
 

Public perception never ceases to amaze me.... :mad:

washingtonpost.com

Well of course we're going to end up reading something like that. I'm kinda surprised it took this long.

The media is going to say whatever they can to get a story out of the public. If they sense fear, they're going to pounce on it. If they sense anger they going to manipulate it. Just the way it goes. It sucks, but it doesn't surprise me a bit that an article that like was published.

Yep, the lady at the end, who wouldn't fly the prop because of children in the cockpit, was the icing on the cake. Lady, if there is going to be a turbo prop accident, it probably wouldn't be under the skies of CA where the worst weather you can have is an overcast layer. Not to mention Skywest has never gone down because of pilot error.

Does SkyWest even fly in the Northeast? I know they fly pretty as far as ORD, but I don't know how far east they actually went.

Skywest does CVG-PHL and I have seen them in JFK, all part of DAL not wanting one regional to dominate a market. Hmmm, I don't see Comair in SLC.

i'm not sure what the article's point was but up until the last couple of paragraphs i think it's a pretty fair assessment that the general flying public have of flying on a regional - rightly or wrongly.

i fly on rj's because i have to. i'd prefer not too but that's me. the rj's are smaller. they are a little noisier (except for when you sit at the back of an md-80 :) ). and to be honest i too have noticed, that on a couple of occasions, the co-pilots have been young. this is not a knock on them but just what i have noticed. most don't realize the training that these guys go through and just see the 22 yr old guy programming the autopilot when boarding the plane. hence the public perception.

they operate into cvg

I can understand this, what is offensive is when the public sees me (I just turned 24) and automatically thinks that they are unsafe. I worked extremely hard for the past 7 years since I started flying to get to where I am today. (Even though I am furloughed now...). I flew in all types of weather, flew skydivers for two years in raggedy old airplanes, had my fair share of experiences and situations that were handled accordingly... all before coming to the airlines.

It probably is comforting to see 'gray' hair on your pilots when you step on board, but do you know how long that gray haired pilot has been flying or what his experience is? Maybe he is a career changer that started his flight training 8 months ago at a 'pilot mill' like ATP. Just because someone is older, doesnt mean they are more experienced. I'm sure you have heard the famous quote "don't judge a book by it's cover". The same applies here.

The next time you step into an aircraft and you see that 24 year old up front, think before you assume. That 24 year old may have 3,000 hours or more and several years of experience with that airline and even more experience with other flying like banner towing, glider towing, flight instructing, flying skydivers, pipeline patrol, night cargo in cessnas, etc. We are all trained to the same standards, no matter what the experience. There are very few "Sully's" in the cockpit, and even he had to start somewhere.

At least the "lady at the end" put her money where her mouth is and is now driving. My advice to anyone else who feels the same way would be to take alternate forms of transportation. I find it very ironic that lately many of us on APC have been crucifying the media for the way that they comment about aviation issues, but many so-called pilots on this site are doing the exact same thing (e.g. jumping to conclusions before the facts are known and generalizing that entire populations of pilots (regional, civilian, young, etc.) are basically incompetent slobs). The main difference is that the media's motives are financial, while the pilots' motives are mostly ego.

SkyWest does/did fly into Halifax (ATL), Toronto (SLC), Philly (MKE/CVG), BWI, HPN, PIT, RDU, Greensomething in South Carolina, Dayton, CLE, Buffalo... off the top of my head.

1) Embraer has never had one of their jets written off. They currently have the safest record in commercial aviation.

2) Where are the "22 year olds programming the autopilot" going to get experience? At what point is it safe? Would you feel safer with a 40 year old who's only been flying for a year? or a 22 year old that has been flying for 5? Would you pay the high costs associated with flying a larger aircraft piloted by a mainline pilot into a larger airport? Where would this major airline pilot come from? Would you rather have one flight a day to your destination aboard a 737 or three aboard a 50 seater?

3) I'm sure if people had died in the Continental runoff at DEN or in the Hudson this would still come up, yet out of the last three commercial aviation accidents, 2 have involved major airlines with those "bigger, safer aircraft"

4) How many people have died on planes and trains in the three years where there were no fatalities aboard 121 aircraft?

5) Are you aware that United and others hired very low time pilots during the 60s and 70s as well?

Perception often does not follow reality.

Never mind that a person has a better chance of being elected president of the USA than dieing in an airplane crash.

Careful bashing thepaxman. Even ignoring his other posts (which show a level of understanding and appreciation far above that of the rest of the populous), his post was to explain the passengers' points of view. He said it himself "most don't realize the level of training these guys go through".

Justified or not, that IS the public perception.

Not bashing at all. Just responding to his comments. I have read the other posts, and I agree wholeheartedly with them as well as what you're saying.

I look a lot younger than I am. I usually bear the brunt of those "are you old enough to fly this?" questions. It gets a little old.

I've always wondered if people readily question their doctor if they are my age.

What do you guys expect? Comair takes off on the wrong runway, this potentially has Pilot error written all over it.............Sully lands safely in the Hudson, you want them to praise us?

I think the pay, the lifestyle, the type of flying DRAINS us psychically and emotionally, but the public doesn't give a rats A$$.

Maybe we wouldn't be so tired if we didn't have to worry about paying our bills on 30 bucks an hour, or worrying about flying being shifted from carrier to carrier, or not being home more than 7 days a month........

Bush simply did'nt allow AIRLINE PILOTS to strike, this administration may be different but enough is enough. I wonder if the media ever thought for a minute this type of lifestyle leads to TIRED, UNFOCUSED PILOTS.

If the pay is equivalent to what a 15 year old makes, then what do they expect?

"By contrast, commuter airlines pay new co-pilots as little as $25,000 a year."

As little as $25,000 a year huh? I am sure that those making $14,500 would love at $10,500 a raise. Maybe this guy can help make it a reality.

The public wants cheap fares. They get what they pay for.

We all go out there and do the job to the best of our ability, but the professional totem pole and associated pay dictate that the regionals act as a stepping stone (at least they used to be).

Prices go down, airplanes get smaller, and more plentiful requiring more pilots to staff them. The supply of ultra experienced pilots wasn't there and hence in come the 400 hour pilots. Furthermore, experience aside, most pilots with 10,000 plus hours are older and have more overhead than a single 22 year old who lives at a crashpad for 150/month. Thus the wages paid just will not work. Again, the airplanes need to be staffed.

This industry needs a huge cash infusion if there is any chance. Ticket prices must go up. And the family wearing wife beaters and fuzzy slippers onto the plane may not be able to go anymore.

I thought the beginning of the article was actually fairly good. I thought the reporter was trying to get the reader to understand that the perception of the people he was quoting was wrong - like when he clarified the size and age of the Q400.

The lady at the end who said:
Well....congrats. She just put herself in a whole lot more danger drinving on the CA highway system than she would have ever faced in the air.

I guess I am actually in the minority when it comes to CRJs/ERJs. I like them. I think they look like sleek airplanes. I love the fancy looking cockpits. I don't mind seeing fairly young pilots sitting in the cockpit because I know the training that they have been through and I know that it is a crew up front looking out for each other. I've also been flying long enough to know what can happen and I am aware, I listen to the safety briefing and refresh my memory on the materials (twice recently I've have had the F/As replace the safety info card because there was gum stuck between the pages. When were they last looked at I wonder?). I would like to FLY them and the shorter routes with more aprroaches, takeoffs and landings; but the business side just kills the buzz to tell the truth. It is a disappointment.

USMCFLYR

i agree with you. perception does not follow reality. that was what i was trying to get across.

BTW, if i really felt unsafe with the 22 yr old co pilot i wouldn't have got on the plane. but i think he did land the plane with those damned "square tires" though :D

Well, maybe not in common carriage. And I'm not arguing with you. But to say they have "never had one of their jets written off" might not be a true statement.

Something about an EMB that got wrecked in a training accident down south, and the fuselage is now used as a cabin trainer comes to mind. Thankfully, they all lived through it.

Unless you call being able to use the pieces to actually fly later not being written off.

It's harder than you think it would be to 'roll one on'. :D

[email protected] <-----Send the articles author Joe Brancatelli and email, and offer him your two cents. I am a "child in the cockpit" at 23, but also consider myself a professional whom regards the safety of passengers above all else.

And $25,000 first year pay - he must have been talking to someone from Horizon :)

I agree with almost everyone, being one of those young guys I get that "are you old enough to fly this?" Seems to have dropped off a little recently.. maybe the last furlough made me look older. If the public is afraid of our planes A) they're newer than probably half of the mainline jets and B) Pay more to go on mainline, or drive to the big airport that has mainline service, or get up for the one flight that's flown on an airbus instead of the four by RJ. And on the age issue, wouldn't the guy who's 23 probably have to be pretty sharp to get where he's gotten by that age? Let's just all dye our hair grey... it'll be fun.. like ipods and backpacks..

USMCflyr

By your estimation what is the avg. age and hr. total for your students when you punch them out of the frs?

Its been awhile but I seem to remember gettin nuggets into our squadron flyin Phrogs (HMM-162) with <500 hrs. Granted we had two pilots and a min crew of three, yet I would speculate that one of your Hornet drivers hits the fleet squadron with less than 1000 hrs total time. These pilots are often single pilot with dangerous stuff hangin from the wings and belly.

I dont understand why the public seems to be ok with young men and women operating expensive equipment and making life and death decisions everyday throughout the world both in airplanes and on the ground.

Sorry for ranting with out a point, I just hate the media and public opinion about age and flight time equating to Yeager(Sully)esque skills.

As Always Semper Fi everybody and keep'em shiny side up.

This is dead on (pun intended). Our young men and woman (18 years of age young) are part of a team that is entrusted in missions critical to the survival of a lot of other men and woman. The reason that this is OK to the public is that they don't directly see it or directly experience it. Sure, they hear about it but it's not the same.

When they get into an aircraft and see a young man or woman they now have a direct stake in what "goes on" in this specific aircraft because it's their life not the life of another. Hypocritical isn't it?

Ya gotta love those squares. They keep it interesting!

Would it be irony if that lady had a car accident now? Speeders, cell phones, and road rage, OH MY!

I think I'll support Obama's plan to improve ejamacashion. The ignorance is simpy overwhelming.

American Eagle has 1000 of their 2700 pilots (mostly RJ captains) with at least 10 years at Eagle alone. It would be reasonable to say that most of these pilots have at least 10,000 hours total time. I have 16,000 total and 7000 PIC in RJ's and 20 years at Eagle alone.

Ironically, most (management and those junior) want these pilots OUT of those positions because they cost too much and/or aren't planning on going anywhere................go figure.

Nothing like emotion-based sweeping generalizations to feed the erronous and misguided fear of the flying public. In the last 2.5 years, we've had a 737 crash on takeoff, an Airbus crash into a river and a turboprop crash on approach, yet "Commutahysteria" is all what has peoples tongues wagging.

Nothing will ever change.

But do we apply make-up when flying?

Are we just going to sit here and take this?!
 

No! Parts of this article are crap and enough is enough! Write to this author!

By playing up the age and big plane vs. small plane issues Joe Brancatelli is just playing to the lowest, dumbest plublic common denominator.

Yeah, drive more America, because statisically, it's way more dangerous, but 20 to 25 year old children are one of the crewmembers! Oh no!

Instead of using his piece to use public leverage to improve regional ("commuter") pilots' relations to parent companies the article tramples the graves of two of our fellow aviators (in my opinion).

Further the piece insults anyone flying professionally who is
1) young in age

2) is/was regional affiliated

3) recently upgraded; "but he'd only been in command of a Q400 since last December"

4) or non military; "When I got out of the Navy, I had 1,800 hours of experience before I even got into commercial aviation" "a reality celebrated last month when 58-year-old Chesley Sullenberger, an Air Force vet with..."

5) fill in the blank

If you feel like I do, follow the link at the bottom of the Washington Post article, and contact Joe Brancatelli and tell him respectfully and briefly what the truth is.

Basura!! (garbage!)

What??

That doesn't make sense. I don't think that follows what I said. I'm saying that the other people driving and cell phoning, smoking, and generally being a meance to the driving public are dangerous. What are you saying??

The ignorance of the non-flying public is what astounds me. They need to be educated. And this talking-head, fan the hysteria fire, mouthpiece for the (dare I say), dumb, article is by and large horse apples.

The author does little to further anyone's cause but the bank accounts of himself and the publisher!

driving while conversing on phone, smoking. maybe applying make-up is not a menace. when have you heard of or seen someone applying make-up while flying?

Good, bad, or indifferent, this is the public's perception of regional airlines.

On average - I'd say they are 24-25 years old and have approximately 400 hrs of flight time. I base the age on a college graduate (22 y/o) and then 2-3 years through the pipeline to hit the fleet.

I base the flight hours on him having no prior flight experience and checking yesterday what a small sampling of our newest class of pilots have coming to the Hornet (250-280+) and then adding another 120 hours in the Hornet before hitting the fleet.

Now...those newly trained wingman hitting the fleet can be thrown RIGHT INTO a combat situation when they leave the FRS and find themselves sent to an already deployed squadron aboard USS Boat sitting in the Gulf flying OIF/OEF missions. They also are on someone's wing most of the time as you might imagine - but stranger things have happened. also - no one is on their wing when it is time for that night carrier approach with pitching decks and a dutch roll thrown in for good measure. What they are able to accomplish is amazing. My hat is off to them. Brave men and women are they.

USMCFLYR

I thought it was a fairly accurate article.....

Alright, now you are making zero sense. Next.

USMC,

I came up the civilian route and thus have no idea how intense the military training is. However, I would venture to guess that 400 hours on the military side is a much different type of 400 hours than found on the civilian side. In other words, the quality of 400 hours in a military training program is probably different than a civilian's first 400 hours.

I had around 400 hours of GA time and my ratings (except for any instructor rating) prior to coming to the military side. I will agree with you that the first 400 hours of my military training was different - more intense. I mean - bombing, dogfighting, low levels at 300-540kts at 200-500', or CARRIER QUALIFICATION - day and night!!!! Of course no civilian training is going to touch that extreme.

But I'll tell you what - - I'll put up a Commercial Pilot with instrument rating who is going for his CFI certification against that same freshly minted FRS aviator in the area of some basic aviation knowledge (pick any of the FAA writtens) and even the PPL would probably eat him alive!

Just remember this.....the airplane (in my community) is nothing more than a flying weapons system. We military pilots are NOT professional pilots. I don't get paid to fly. I get paid for being a Marine - flying is just what I do when Uncle Sam needs some attitudes readjusted ;) If I want someone to take off from an expeditionary airfield at night and conduct a self-escorted strike on NVGs; then I'll chose the military trained pilot. If I want someone to get me safely from DFW to LAX in IMC, then that 25 y/o, 1000 hr "child" is better suited to be flying my family around in an RJ anyday (as part of well trained and coordinated crew) - IMO.

USMCFLYR

This should be nominated for the quote of the week.....:D