May 1999 to May 2009 Pinnacle Contract
 

10 years with one contract this may! 5 years in Negotiations! No end in sight and the company pretty much does what ever they want. Junior people are constantly abused, senior people are being junior manned. 30 captains displaced for no reason. No communication what so ever and no negotiations even scheduled for the near future.

ALPA cannot control p1ss poor management and company leaning NMB members.

I have picketed for PCL and you have a lot of resolve and good leadership, it just takes time under the lame RLA rules.

Airlines should be under the NLRA like every other normal "unregulated" industry. When the Airline De-regulation Act was passed the labor rules should have changed then too, but that is water under the bridge now.

Good luck and I will picket with PCL again if the opportunity arises.

Are you kidding? Dont you get the bi-monthly email and the negotiations update email? Didnt you just listen to the confrence call just a few days ago? Don't you ever checkout our online forum? How much more communication do you want? I even go as far to say that if you got any MORE communication you would be on here complaining about being bother by TOO MUCH communication.

Also, the lack of negotiations scheduled is not a fault of the union, its a fault of our mediator and current policy requiring us to jump through these hoops in the first place.

Furthermore, Im sick of people like you getting on here crying about how Alpa is holding us back from a contract, if you havent noticed they are the only people trying to get us a new contract. I take it you dont remember what the company offered for 900 rates? I guess you would have been happier with those in a non-union enviroment.

Im sure we would have a contract by now without Alpa, but it would be company written. NO THANKS!!!

Do us all a favor and spend this time and engery getting involved to try and make our union better.

No offense but ALPA is not a UNION joker. Look at how DAL run by RA is pulling JPs strings. They don't even talk to us anymore.

There are a lot of pilots out there at much larger airlines than 9E unhappy with ALPO.

And you gotta be kidding me in defending ALPO in it's contract negotiations with 9E. Could it really be worse. You apparently have never had a real union job.

Unfortunately any new contract with Pinnacle management looks farther and farther away.

Some of the latest company attempts to cover the CFO's auction rate securities that are coming due.....

1. Firing half the base management staff and forcing the others to work twice as much for less money.

2. Canceling 401k match to employees.

3. Furloughing mechanics and trying to find someone to finance their spare parts operation.

4. Forcing a 401k change from Diversified Investments to Fidelity, in the meantime the company is raking in the interest off the employees money everyday. (Anyone have money at Fidelity yet?) - Must be lost in the internet black hole somewhere...

5. Switching employee payroll to 'in-house' so they can keep the payroll funds another 5 days(gaining interest), which has been a debacle for the people trying to run the program in Memphis.

There is no way this management team is going to write a check for a new contract with big retro pay right now. Just the reality of what they are doing....

Hard to believe they got themselves sooo far down this road.

If these are the same "in housers" that were (perhaps are still are) doing Colgan's pay, keep a hand on your wallet! When I was over guarantee, on average they shorted my pay by 4 hours, and I am not alone. It seemed to be SOP. Every month I had to fight to get paid. Finally, I just said screw it and bid well under guarantee.

I agree 100%...

I have two words for you guys:

Safety First!

Unless your pilot group (not your union) individually (yet collectively) decides to actively promote "Safety First," you'll never get the contract you desire. This has been proven many times over by others who have been where you are today.

I mentioned this concept recently to a Pinnacle jumpseater. He agreed, yet made it clear that your pilot group is afraid that if performance suffers, Delta will attempt to cancel your contract. This is true. What you must understand, is that your Management is even more afraid of this than you are. At some point Delta will come to your management and say, "either you guys get your act together (i.e. get a pilot contract) or we're going to start cancelling your flying." If this happens, I guarantee, within a week, you'll have a contract.

You guys are all FAR off the truth on the payroll/401k stuff. I can spend the time explaining it all if you would like but won't take the time if not asked.


If you have problems or feel you are not given enough info- ASK!

PM me for an email and phone number or post it here. If it shouldn't be public I can tell you why and explain/answer it privately.

When does Obama appoint new NMB members?

So what kind of under-the-table bonus does PT get for making this a 10 year contract I wonder?

The whole system is flawed, why should pilots have to inconveniece passengers to get a pay raise? If the plane is broke or if you are tired, you don't fly it period. But you don't make stuff up and taxi slow and make people miss their connections just to try to get a contract. That should be the union negotiators job to get a contract, thats why they credit 100 plus hours a month and its obvious after 5 years that they can't get the job done. Once again, I hope they prove me wrong. The numbers on this poll speak for themselves though. And as far as communication goes, if you call getting 2 emails a month saying that there is no progress or future dates scheduled communication, than I can see why you agree with alpa. Can anyone on here honestly tell me what are negotiators are even negotiating? There response will be what "we answered in the wilson polls". Let me translate that for you, it means, "we are negotiating a contract that is good for the senior people of this company".

Higney,

You guys are doing a fine job. The problem isn't the union it's the regional industry. It's very exsistance is based on work rules and wages like ours. If we ever had the wages we truly should earn you would probably see the swift extinction of this side of the biz. Not a bad thing in my opinion, but it'll never happen.

Once people start to accept the fact that the job most people paid JetU/ERAU Capt Program/Gulfstream $80,000+ for isn't the high-life livable dream job they saw in a movie once then maybe the constant whining will cease. What?? I had no idea it was going to be a crappy place to work when I fully understood their payscale well-before saying YES to the job offer! But hey, don't I look good in my uniform??

do tell, what "real" union jobs have you had, during negotiations, in your extensive life experiences.......:rolleyes:

I am not ****ed with ALPA because of the lack of contract, their hands are tied because of the RLA. What I am ****d about is the age 65 rule that they let pass. Not only did they let pass, they endorsed and worked for. That's my main beef with ALPA. I want to see my dues used to get rid of the airlines falling under the RLA, then maby we wont see 5 yr contract negotiations.

See you all in May in MEM on the picket line. I'll proudly be carrying my "I make less than $22,000 per year" picket sign.

You don't have to make stuff up. The dirty truth is, there's a small percentage of aircraft operating every day that don't have some issue that legally should be written up and fixed. You and I both know this. As professionals, we often make judgment calls on things that "can wait" until a more appropriate time or that can simply be fixed with "cntrl-alt-delete." There are also things that simply go overlooked. Worn out placards, burned out flight deck light bulbs, spoiler fault messages; the list goes on. There's a story of one of our Captains, who, upon being extended, grounded 12 airplanes before they finally sent him home. It may not be right, but neither is negotiating a contract for 5 years. Sometimes the end justifies the means.

You want change? What do you propose as a strategy/tactic?

I don't know much about ALPA, but I am good friends with a guy who works a union job, non airline, and it doesn't seem like they have to play these games with management. I know management, within any industry, will not give in to any and all union wants, but it at least seems, outside of the airlines, that management plays a little more fair.

I agree with PinnacleFO. It isn't right to inconvenience paying customers, trying to make it to weddings, funerals, family events, business meetings, a family member or friend, who is in the hospital, and other important events, just to try to get a contract. I think you really do have to take a look at who is representing you, when you have to resort to those tactics, to get a contract. Those tactics, in my opinion, make you no better than management.

If you keep giving management the good performance numbers that you do then you will continue to have a crappy contract. They know they can get good numbers out of you with the current contract so what incentive do they have to give you a new one? "Saftey first" is absolutely correct. Yeah you might **** off the passengers for a little bit, but it will all get settled in less than a month and you will end up with a good contract. Hopefully one that is industry leading. Clearly the status quo for the last 5 years isn't working.

fortunately for your friend, he is not governed by the RLA, which is why he doesn't have to jump through as many hoops as airline employees.

That is it exactly. I've seen more press in the last 6 months from ALPA about getting into the TSA in regards to CrewPass than I've ever heard from them about hitting every option in D.C. on changing the ridiculously irrelevent RLA.

There is some irony here. When the current contract was presented to the pilots in 1999, alot of people were upset that it was a 5 year agreement. At the road shows, the NC told everyone to consider it a 3 year agreement since the previous contract had 2 years left on it! :mad:

Also, this matter of changing the 401k over fidelity is history repeating itself. the 401ks were with Mass Mutual before Diversified.

If writing up a valid squawk, making sure manifests are correct, and insuring everything is done by the book inconveniences pax, so be it. I thought being safe, legal, and prudent was providing good service.

This will never happen at 9E, too many people would rather just fly a broken A/C back to MSP/MEM/DTW to get it fixed there...
This place is filled with to many Gulfstream/JetU people that really dont care about a good contract or what they get paid, they are just happy that they dont have to pay 9E to fly the plane. Most of them are re-treads from other careers and flying is just a hobby. 10$ or 1,000$ bucks an hour makes no mind to them, they are just thrilled to be JET CAPTS!

What ASA did, will never happen at 9E.

Dude I take Much Offense to this statement. I went to Gulfstream and I all I care about right now is this contract. I know that all the guys that fly here that were in my class at the stream and the classes before and after mine feel the same way. Ive been at 9E for five years now, and have gone through all the contract bs that the company has put us through. I do care about what I get payed and about a good contract with good scope and work rules. It doesnt matter where you were before this to want a good contract.

If someone feels they can do something better or wants to make a change there is a 2 step process for this.

1. Volunteer. Pick something you are interested and you will find at least 1 committee you can make a difference at.

2. Support the PAC. If you want political change you need to support the efforts. Even if you hate politics- you gotta pay to play.

There is a LONG way to go for regionals and ALPA. Do I blame ALPA?-somewhat. Too many people have the notion of "Hey, I'm only here a few years- let me just have a little raise and it's better than nothing". If we really are going to "take it back" there needs to be a national and international campaign where everyone is in the same boat. QOL and benefits should be the same regardless of if you have a family of 4 and work at Delta, or a family of 4 and work at an ALPA regional. Should you get paid more to operate a larger aircraft?- yes. Paid more for longer longevity?- yes. Some sort of national list to allow those who are furloughed to get the first dibs at another ALPA carrier?- yes (but that gets very complicated).

Personally, I want to see a payscale that is by weight. FO's should make 60% of the CA rate. The pilots should have equity in the company (through ALPA national) and a seat on the BOD. Profit sharing for all groups- management, shareholders, and employees. If everyone has some "skin in the game", everyone works together- regardless of the economic or political climate. I know where my opinions are with mgmt's decisions and also feel that many of the mistakes WOULD NOT have been allowed to happen if there were representatives of the various employee groups involved in the decisions from the beginning and the potential for gains in the execution phase would have been much greater with the strong starting foundation.

Currently the morale at my company is the lowest I have seen and I would venture to bet our performance numbers will show direct lineage to morale and the "extra effort" that was once put forth from the pride and desire of being Professionals- but not treated as such. Now it's all about "safety", just as it always has been- the difference is that the pilots (and other labor groups) are not going above and beyond to get the job done in leu of management's mistakes.

I've seen the UAW in action, and the day after the contract expired was the day the assembly line stopped. No RLA there!

If that can be done now, without delays, why would it suddenly cause delays? Are you saying that safety doesn't come first, right now, as performance numbers are high? If managemenet suddenly gives you an industry leading contract tomorrow, suddenly safety isn't so important - we'll get the flights out on time.

If you are going to dot every i and cross every t, while in negotiations, to send management a message, claiming safety, then why isn't every i being dotted, and ever t crossed, when not in negotiations. JMHO, but the way it comes across, if, until management gives us what we want, we are playing "safety first", and delaying flights, so our numbers decline, but as as soon as they give us a contract, we'll do whatever we have to, to get flights out on time. In the latter, did safety suddenly go out the window? Seems inconsistant to me.

Either you are mgmt, not a 121 pilot, or have not been paying attention for 5+ years.....


Troll?

Are you management or simply uneducated in the ways of applying the proper pressure during contract negotiations? You do not sound much like a line pilot to me.

[quote=PinnacleFO;577397]The whole system is flawed, why should pilots have to inconveniece passengers to get a pay raise?

Because it is the only way to get the attention of mgmt.

If the plane is broke or if you are tired, you don't fly it period. But you don't make stuff up and taxi slow and make people miss their connections just to try to get a contract.

Yes, you do. It sucks for the pax and it is not fun but it is how you
get a contract.

That should be the union negotiators job to get a contract, thats why they credit 100 plus hours a month and its obvious after 5 years that they can't get the job done.

It is their job and I am sure they are trying. So it is up to the line
pilots to help them by being a thorn in the pax/DAL side. When you lay
waste to D-0, A-14, and CF, then you will begin to see things change.
DAL will threaten to take your flying. They might even cut some of your
flying for a while. It might suck for some of you for a while. But it beats
working under a crappy contract indefinitely.

[quote=fboehm;578218]
Thank You, but im gonna have to guess that you work at ASA or some airline where the pilots/union have ball*...
Look at AA
Schnurman: American Airlines pilots need a reality check | Business | Star-Telegram.com

After 5 years I hope people dont feel bad for us, I hope they are laughing at us.

Sorry man but your logic makes little sense to a real 121 line pilot. You are trying to use this "connect the dot" logic with your example implying that real line pilots do not make safety a #1 priority.

This is an offensive statement. You have NO IDEA what lengths WE go to to make sure YOU and the passengers get to your destination safe and on time.

I am very suspicious of you anyways. You are NOT a 121 pilot but use words like "we will," what is your angle? Do you just like playing pilot on a airline pilot forum and then questioning our safety standards?

Maybe I should go to a forums for dentist and talk about things I know nothing about.

Our professionalism is what kills us all in this job. I would like to think that most of us dont do things intentionally to ruin operations and the likes. MGT plays this angle against us, because they know most of us will still show up and do our jobs. With every right comes a level of resposibilty. Our right is to fly these aircraft, and the resposibility that comes with it is to operate them safely and to the best of our ability. Remember that we choose to come to work everyday, and we have a right to show up to work or not to. It is the right that you have bestowed on your union to represent you, and it is their resposibility to do so. It is your right to decide who represents you, and it is your responsibility to ensure that they represent you in a proper manner. If they fail to do so, then it is your responsiblity to make the sacrifices necessary to create an envirornment that will work for you as a whole. It is through this resposibility that you will face certain consequences that you will and others will face due to your actions and decisions, some of which may be popular, and some may not. You entered this career as a professional, and god willing we will all leave this profession as such. Harming the very people (passengers) that make you job necessary may well be the course of action that we all someday may face, but remember that managment always has an out, and we as pilots may not. Dont cut your nose off to spite your face. Dig your heels in and do you job, check your pride at the door, and go home to you family when the day is over, remember that it is your airline, and tommorow is a new opportunity to improve on today, tommorow is new day:,)

just remember that contract maintenance is around $100-$200/hr with usally a 3 hr min.
you got to keep all them screws in the carpet moldings tight, someone could trip and die!!

plus on long sits and overnights the pax wouldnt even know, but mgt would sure enjoy the bills

Okay, I am a sucker and will give you the benefit of the doubt: I guess you are just uninitiated and not a management or lawyer troll.

Currently, my "managemenet" [sic] does not require a cell phone nor do they pay captains a stipend to have one. All of the CAs I have flown with use their money and airtime to call MX about a write up or dispatch about a bad release. They use their phones to keep pax on time. Otherwise, every discrepancy would require a walk into operations, wait for one of the two lines to be available, call HQ with the issue, then walk back to the plane. If they did this one thing, our on time performance would drop 20-30%.


In all things there are gray areas. When I look at the tires on my car and see the tread is getting thin, at what point do I replace them. If I am going on a long trip, I buy new ones, but if I will be staying in town for several weeks, let them roll. If I am a professional trucker, those better be brand new!

No angle, and I don't use words like "we will", implying that "I" am a 121 pilot. I use it referring to you all. Speaking in the third person, if that is the correct term. I am a pilot, by the way, just don't do it for a living.

I am all for you guys getting a new contract, and I am all for you guys sticking it to management. I just think you guys need to be careful how you do it. Let the media get a hold of the fact that flights are being delayed, for job actions, while pilots are in negotiations, and flights with maintenance problems, that were once not such a big deal, are suddenly being delayed, and cancelled. The media will certainly spin that, and it most likely will not be in the pilots favor. "You mean, they were flying these planes, with the problems, before?" The media will not hesitate to put pilots in the spotlight, and not in such a good way.

Remeber that this is a public message board. Anybody can join. Anybody can read through the threads. Be careful what you say, and how you say it. Also, some of you need to not take these boards so seriously. As human beings, we are all going to have different opinions, and we are welcome to them. While I am being jumped on, it was a 121 pilots who first brought up that it isn't right to delay flights. I'd be willing to bet, he/she isn't the only one who believes that.

1. The media has never cared about what we make. In they eyes of the public we are over paid and all we do is sit up front drinking coffee, and reading the paper.

2. Yes, the board is public but YOU need to keep in mind the following analogy.

Would you go to a public park, find a black bear's den, walk in, wake em up, and it expect to be a pleasant meeting?

This is a board where we AS AIRLINE PILOTS are discussing a contract negotiations process. Learn the RLA, read ALPA's history (Flying the Line v. I and II) and then let us know what we are doing so wrong. Until then you are swimming against the current.

Bottom line is:

If the pilots are unhappy, management couldn't care less.

If the pax are unhappy, management has to listen.

We are the face of the company, we have all of the control of the passengers comfort and overall experience. You would think a company in customer service would like to keep the people happy who give them a good name.

I'm happy with the union at 9E and I'm furious with the NMB under bush. The deck is already stacked in management's favor by the RLA and the Bush NMB took away labor's best and biggest leverage (a legal strike).

In that climate its no wonder we didn't get a good contract. ASA showed us how its done when the dice are loaded... nice job guys.

Now I'm hopeful that we'll see some progress because of Obama's appointee to the NMB. She was president of the flight attendant's union. When she's in I think we'll be released very quickly.

I'm ready to burn it down but i'll play by the rules with a reasonable person heading to the NMB.