How to increase pilot's salary
03-18-2009 | 09:53 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: 319/320/321...whatever it takes.
The issue as I see it is one of wages go down in bad times (consessions,etc,) but stay the same in good times because of the contract. We have to wait for our contract renewal to get a pay increase. So when a boom cycle comes, we have to wait. Also, ALPA doesn't want anything done outside of the contract. I remember several years ago that Pinnacle offered a hiring bonus to get people to stay, because people were getting hired, finding out how crappy it was (no offense to the pilots, but I've heard horror stories with sched, etc), and bailing. They had such a huge retention issue that they tried to pay more in a "hiring bonus" and ALPA stopped it saying it wasn't part of the contract. I understand why they did it. I believe they were right essentially, but I wonder how hard it would be to get the company to open up section 6 negotiations before the amendable date. It seems that would have been the perfect time to do it, when the company needed pilots. Unfortunately, when there is a pilot shortage the contract prevents any increase for "supply and demand" forces.
Also, we can't just strike. It is against the law. That is why we need to get out from the RLA in my opinion. But that is whole 'nother discussion.
Also, we can't just strike. It is against the law. That is why we need to get out from the RLA in my opinion. But that is whole 'nother discussion.
03-18-2009 | 10:16 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 321
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From: I only fly multi-winged airplanes.
03-18-2009 | 10:40 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Legacy FO
It is simple...forget about the pilot group as a whole. The pilot group as a whole is pretty dumb/underqualified...I mean they push buttons in jets at 300 hours, and if an FO can push those buttons at 300 hours who gives a Flurk if he can push them at 2000 hours...how great can they be??? Thus pay goes down. Think about yourself when it comes to pay...dont run with your hair on fire to the nearest regional airline as if they have the only fire hose in town.
Flight instruct to 135 mins or ATP mins and actually LEARN something, and then go to the BEST PAYING regional...or go to a 135 operation. 135 operators usually hire first year guys at 24k and then they advance up to 30k much quicker than going through the 121 route. I would say a guy with 1 year of 135 experience is worth 30-40k easy. Guys with 135 experience are almost always better pilots due to the fact they usually dont have a captain to babysit them and you cant get into a 135 operation with only 300 hours. Also they often have less automated aircraft and pink line producing equipment (They actually have to know what they are doing and be situationally aware).
Does that really make sense...the guy with less experience is flying bigger equipment and the guy with 135/ATP mins is flying a smaller PISTON aircraft???...a guy with 1500 hours is flying a piston twin (by himself) is making more $$$ than a guy with 300 hours flying a jet? Then you need to remember that a lot of 135 operators dont care to interview 121 SIC guys because they know they probably dont have PIC time or decision making experience with the wx/NOTAMS/or just straight up have a pair.
What are most guys with 1 year of 121 experience worth at the regional level worth? 16k to 22k. The BEST PAYING regional (Horizon) starts out at about 27k. I am also describing a "normal" economic climate. Of course then you have to remember ANYONE who flys a jet at the REGIONAL level is helping to nose dive, and add full power, to the plane that is carrying pilot salaries.
Flight instruct to 135 mins or ATP mins and actually LEARN something, and then go to the BEST PAYING regional...or go to a 135 operation. 135 operators usually hire first year guys at 24k and then they advance up to 30k much quicker than going through the 121 route. I would say a guy with 1 year of 135 experience is worth 30-40k easy. Guys with 135 experience are almost always better pilots due to the fact they usually dont have a captain to babysit them and you cant get into a 135 operation with only 300 hours. Also they often have less automated aircraft and pink line producing equipment (They actually have to know what they are doing and be situationally aware).
Does that really make sense...the guy with less experience is flying bigger equipment and the guy with 135/ATP mins is flying a smaller PISTON aircraft???...a guy with 1500 hours is flying a piston twin (by himself) is making more $$$ than a guy with 300 hours flying a jet? Then you need to remember that a lot of 135 operators dont care to interview 121 SIC guys because they know they probably dont have PIC time or decision making experience with the wx/NOTAMS/or just straight up have a pair.
What are most guys with 1 year of 121 experience worth at the regional level worth? 16k to 22k. The BEST PAYING regional (Horizon) starts out at about 27k. I am also describing a "normal" economic climate. Of course then you have to remember ANYONE who flys a jet at the REGIONAL level is helping to nose dive, and add full power, to the plane that is carrying pilot salaries.
If you don't want to do active duty, go Guard (reserve) and fly both. You'll make more flying the weekends (or whatever days you choose) with Uncle Sam than at your regional job. In a lot of states, the Guard will pay for your college.
-Fatty
03-18-2009 | 04:00 PM
#45
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AND why cant there be a law that in order to fly passengers for an airline, both the First officer and Captain must have ATP minimums? wouldn't this solve the problem of having too many 300hr first officers? every pilot would have to find some kind of job, instructing or banner towing, in order to get there. Then, maybe the airlines would be something to look forward too.
Now there is a way that ALPA could be of some good use. Lobby congress to change the law that only those with ATP minimum qualifications could fly large Turbo-Props and any jet aircraft under 121 carriage. Compass has this requirement and all of their new hires are typed in the aircraft. This would take away the volatility of hiring and allow pilots to demand proper compensation. A guy right out of a pilot mill with a wet ticket really is in no position to demand 45-60K as a start, but a type rated ATP could.
Now there is a way that ALPA could be of some good use. Lobby congress to change the law that only those with ATP minimum qualifications could fly large Turbo-Props and any jet aircraft under 121 carriage. Compass has this requirement and all of their new hires are typed in the aircraft. This would take away the volatility of hiring and allow pilots to demand proper compensation. A guy right out of a pilot mill with a wet ticket really is in no position to demand 45-60K as a start, but a type rated ATP could.
03-18-2009 | 05:21 PM
#46
Airport Hobo
Joined: Apr 2007
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Not that I agree with any of you, just the fact that we need to raise the bar, but back to the original poster's idea: what about a "Safe Operations Fee?" Again, don't necessarily agree just, we call them hidden fees for a reason.
03-18-2009 | 08:14 PM
#47
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Rampant Desperation
The desperation game starts even before the regionals, my friends.
Think about the low to NO paying CFI, banner, diver driver gigs out there.
I don't know of any CFI unions...
Oh, the desperation flames are fanned by the very large investment in flight training. Even cheaper mom and pop FBO training still puts many deep in the hole.
Also, whoever said we should put qoutas on the number of entrants like in nursing is probably on to something.
But remember; the desperation starts early, and management smells desperation like a shark smells blood.
Think about the low to NO paying CFI, banner, diver driver gigs out there.
I don't know of any CFI unions...
Oh, the desperation flames are fanned by the very large investment in flight training. Even cheaper mom and pop FBO training still puts many deep in the hole.
Also, whoever said we should put qoutas on the number of entrants like in nursing is probably on to something.
But remember; the desperation starts early, and management smells desperation like a shark smells blood.
03-18-2009 | 09:59 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
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The desperation game starts even before the regionals, my friends.
Think about the low to NO paying CFI, banner, diver driver gigs out there.
I don't know of any CFI unions...
Oh, the desperation flames are fanned by the very large investment in flight training. Even cheaper mom and pop FBO training still puts many deep in the hole.
But remember; the desperation starts early, and management smells desperation like a shark smells blood.
Think about the low to NO paying CFI, banner, diver driver gigs out there.
I don't know of any CFI unions...
Oh, the desperation flames are fanned by the very large investment in flight training. Even cheaper mom and pop FBO training still puts many deep in the hole.
But remember; the desperation starts early, and management smells desperation like a shark smells blood.
03-18-2009 | 10:44 PM
#49
Airport Hobo
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 844
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Although, unlike ALPA, participation is voluntary so I'm not sure how much bargaining power they actually have. As far as I know it's never been tested; I don't think they've ever threatened to strike.
03-19-2009 | 08:44 AM
#50
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,543
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From: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Desperation is a stinky cologne
I really do believe we need to shake this race to the bottom earlier than at the regional level. I just talked to a flight student the other day saying how he'd love to fly divers for free over the summer. Then he goes on to say how he wants to have a great career later on. Right. Rotten foundations to build a career on.
I saw flight instructor pay increase during the regional hiring boom. That's when CFIs were almost cocky, not desperate. "well if xyz flight school doesn't like it, heck with 'em...I'm going to abc regional in two weeks!"
For that short period of time, flight instructor pay and benefits were boosted, and we were treated better than whipping boys, it was good. Now it's back to "Johnny down the street will give his left arm for your job, so suck it up!"
I am becoming more and more convinced it isn't thrust and lift that make a plane fly, but desperation.
Last edited by block30; 03-19-2009 at 08:46 AM. Reason: grammar
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