The RAH contract is still in the air. We have no idea what they are currently debating and yelling at those of us here about it isn't going to help anything one way or another. Feel free to be supportive all you'd like but give the rest a break. Another "I heard from a FA" thread with explosive results. It's comical. Lets worry about that situation if it arises.

US Air caps at $95 per hour from 10yrs on up.
RAH 10yr pay =$90 for 175+. At 12yrs equal. At 15yrs it's $10+ over US Air.

When everyone is arguing pay are they talking about first year FO pay? I have no doubt our guys are working on FO pay. Lets not play Micheal Moore with the numbers. They can all be pushed out of context. Why don't we all jump over to the cargo board and jump up and down on UPS guys because they pay $35 an hour to fly a 747! Truth be told there's always more than just that first little number everyone spouts. I know I know the FO pay still isn't great but give a little credit when due and appreciate everything that's taken place and the ability of the pilot group to contain it as well as they have. Given the extremely rapid expansion of the company as well has all the little holes they've tried to poke in the contract i'm still rather proud of my pilot group for the stances they've taken. I've seen other groups bend over and take it on some of these same issues where ours has stood firm and now is moving forward hopefully with current negotiations.

So what we gather from your post is that you're ok with the current pay scale because UPS pays $35 to fly 747. Actually, a new hire at UPS would probably not see the 74 for a few years, but that's besides the point.

Here's the problem with your post, you make it seem like if "we can do better that's great", if not "then that's great too" because we catch up to USair in 12 years (BTW, they are operating under concessions and haven't completed their contract)!!!

Seriously, if the "modern day Lorenzo" is inevitably going to bring the 190's on property the least you guys can ask for is Jetblue plus 10...that's at a bare minimum! But you and I know that the reverend isn't going to fork out that kinda of cash, so what are you prepare to do?

Will you just take the flying for the sake of growth and an upgrade at whatever rates his divine hand gives you? Or will you stand up for the future of the profession, for your career, and for what's right?

So toilet duck, what's it going to be? I've talked to some of your peers and they will put up a fight, but they are not "faithful" followers. Which will you choose?

Honest question, no flame.

Only if you didn't take the time to understand it.

Just jumpseated with them a few months ago where a newhire was an old CHQ guy off IOE from the 74.

We haven't completed our contract either. US Air is where they all came from in the first place. I've never implicated "if not then that's great too". What I've said, feel free to read it yourself, is that considering the rapid growth of the company(meaning fleet additions and extremely fast paced growth of flight crew numbers) and the uphill battle our pilots have had with them that I'm proud of my guys for have stood firm where others have fallen.

I'd like to see your comparisons. "Seriously". Frank L and JO might have a little more in common.

That's a great number. Where'd you get it from? Can you explain to me why that number makes sense? Is it possible you're just stabbing at random figures? What calculations did you do to come up with this solid and sound figure? You should consider work rules into your equation too. But anyway wouldn't this mean your time would be spent more wisely lecturing/complaining to the JetBlue and US Air guys who actually have the aircraft and are flying them for wages you don't think seem fit vs. companies who don't even have them? :confused: <--I'm dead serious if you can give me an answer to that my brain will be warped into some form of enlightenment never experienced by the likes of mankind. You have to admit it makes it seem more like you just hate a particular company, who shall remain nameless, rather then looking for the most effective form of internet picketing.

I'm sure the union will give them a figure based on what others are flying them for like everyone else does. Either they spring for it or they don't.

Well if you've read any of my previous posts regarding our situation you'd see I, nor anyone else, plan on flying any new additional aircraft for a number that doesn't seem fair. What determines fair will be based on many things from industry averages, company growth/finances, future outlook, work rules, and so fort. A simple "We want JBLU +$10" will get laughed at without something substantial to back it. If the time ever came I'd sit down, plug out the numbers, and decide where I'd draw the line. If not met they can keep them. I won't vote for a new larger type of aircraft on property at the expense of mainline pay or jobs. That simple. I'm content with being an FO until that is met.


Now my turn.

You keep pegging guys that work here with "Would you put up a fight or just take what he gives you". Do you not think that sounds a little hypocritical from someone who took a paycut from his management? Regardless of reason why it was still taken. Yes an FO might still make as much or more there than RAH but doesn't the point still stand? How much did that do for "the future of the profession, for your career, and for what's right"? What this points to is that everyone has a point where they'll take what's given when they consider it justified. You're on your side of the fence and we're on ours. Your guys were faced with a decision and felt it was justified to vote yes on the concessions. Those justifications are on your own personal levels. Your opinions are widely noted but might not always be shared by all those on our end. To each his own and you need to learn to accept that. Regardless of why you found it justified to take a pay cut you make less now than you did a year ago which is not what's "best for the profession". I'm not dogging it you did what you thought you had to do but I don't think it's proper for us to be lectured then about doing what's "best for the profession". As I said I'm proud of my pilot group for achieving the things they have and have faith they'll do the right thing in the future. It's a series to steps not a single leap.

Since that's not anything close to what I said I'll try to clear it up.

#1. Do I want to see 190 size aircraft at a regional airline.

Answer.. NO

#2. If they are going to end up at regional airline would I prefer to be working for the company getting the growth or would I rather fall on my sword sitting in the right seat forever while another company flies the aircraft.

Answer.. Would you fall on your sword for me? Have you?

#3. Do I think it is wise to be the highest paid amongst the regional airlines.

Answer.. No, ask ExpressJet and Comair how that worked out. 2 steps forward 3 steps back. There is a lesson in that.

To summarize my perspective. I do not want 190s at regional airlines, frankly I don't want crj's at the regional level. 50 seat turbo props or less please. If we have them do I want paid for them, yes. I will not be endorsing any contract that does not pay our pilots (both seats) reasonable wages for equipment current or forthcoming. If however I were to show up to work tomorrow and have a E 190 on the release that I was supposed to fly will I, yes. It was not mine to give up and I am not going to end up out of a job because someone else didn't have the stones to stand up for theirs.


I believe that the code shares we fly for and their pilot groups have much more control over what happens at regional airlines than we at regional airlines do. But frankly they have their hands full with problems directly effecting themselves. Until work rules and pay are standardized between all airlines there will always be someone willing to do for less what someone else won't if it means personal gain no matter how short term. Do I personally agree with that philosophy, honestly no. It has been detrimental to nearly everything in the world, and clearly to this industry.

Know what's funny, that's not even that bad compared to some of the stuff I've herd. I had one guy on the jumpseat (an RAH FO) tell me that AWAC was bringing down the industry. I looked back at him and say, sure buddy, how so? His reason, we took a concessionary contract. I rolled my eyes, and explained to him all the things we have in our CONCESSIONARY, that was missing in RAH's contract. Little things like, trip/duty rigs, much better pay on the FO side of things and captain pay that was within spitting distance of their much larger aircraft, full deadhead pay, vacation trip touching, our 401k match and the list goes on. Funny thing, he didn't have much to say after that.
And to the poster who said deadheading pay isn't a big deal, really? You like doing stuff for the company when your only getting paid for 3/4 of the work you do? Let's see, if that logic follows you shouldn't have to do a walk around, because well, that's about 1/4 of what an FO does during his preflight duties. So, next time your walking around your BIG plane in the pouring rain, just remember the deadheading pay your missing out on!
Honestly, let's bring the bar up to at least our CONCESSIONARY contract, and I hope every single new contract is able to beat it (so far, Mesa has totally failed to live up to that, but that's just the MESA way of doing things! sorry guys that was too easy!). I honestly and sincerely hope that RAH can beat AWAC/Comair/Expressjet in the fight to get what's right!

UPS hasn't had newhires in a while...

"bigger plane at my company" funny stuff!!! typical ****yard pilot

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, this place is NOTHING like flightinfo. :rolleyes:

How are you making $45k as a 2nd year FO. Per diem is not income, and if you are making that much, you are working way too much. It is your own decision to make, but making the move to a major was the best decision I could have made. I made more money, even on first year pay, averaged 16 days off a month, and never flew more than 65 hours. I know some people that went to other companies, and it didn't work out, but you can't get reward without risk.

I still can't believe I just read that.

To each their own but for anyone who can see past their nose, its a no brainer to make the move when/if the opportunity presents itself.imho

I am truly sorry one of our people said that, this is not the general opinion of things at RAH and certainly not Air Wisconsin. I believe a lot of new young guys who don't know what has been given up or why have a tendency to over compensate for ignorance by saying thing s like this.

Truth be told: If I dead head once a month I'd be surprised so getting paid 3/4 of the hour to sleep in exchange for not getting internally whip sawed when the company tried to start the Republic Certificate ala Go Jet style and the pilot group fought it off, I can live with that one.

As for maintenance cancellations, it has happened to me once in the past 2 year, ONCE! I've been lucky I know. But I personally can't get too excited about that one.

I don't get junior manned because they can't per our crappy contract and I have never seen a pilot sitting hot reserve. For Rigs, I average 6 hours a day and all of my days are 2/1 even with a crappy sit. A weather/maintenance cancellation screws you but its rare.

With regards to beating Express Jet or AirWisconsin this is not going to do anything but put us on top of the fence to be the first to be picked off. In no time flat our code shares will have mesa/go jet/name a regional under bidding our contracts and now we are the ones taking concessionary wages just to keep our jobs. It honorable to fight to be number one but some times ego and laurels can make you an easy target. Most I talk too hear like to fly a little further under the radar. My apologies for my ignorant co-worker.

I just did my taxes and I am looking at $34k with 50% of the year being first year pay. This was for 1004 hours of pay credit but I only flew 850-875 max. And frankly if its my check and I can spend it, its income, per diem included!

Hear is what I see at RAH. 45 year old captain making $100 an hour getting 16 days a month off and picking his schedule. With the only chance of unemployment being that company has completely shut its doors. Or... Go to Delta/West starting at the bottom, sitting reserve risking furlough, a regional taking the A320 you are flying someday because the company talked the top half of the seniority group into it with something that would benefit them or you in 20 years.

One guy had a good analogy, put an add in the paper to work 3 days a week and get paid $120K a year, how many resume's would you expect. RAH has had explosive growth over the last 7 years, there are many hear feeling the golden handcuffs. It's not the best paying but to many it pays enough. Sometimes enough and a great quality of life is all it takes to be a regional lifer.


this add sponsored by the stop picking on regional pilots council for better living.

With that atititude, why don`t you guys ask for 50% paycut and that way you can get even more job security? Is everyone in RAH happy to recite managments propagada speech? Here is a simple question: Why is it OK for American pilots to get paid less than the majority of the world? Even the Chinese make more. I can honestly say that, except for pilots, I have never met a group of professionals that would advocate less pay for themselves... Maybe pilos are getting what they deserve.

I am not saying we don't want more and we don't want to better our position, I was only saying that being on top isn't always the best place to be. You immediately jump to the conclusion that I am happy with the state of affairs, you need to read more of my work because I am clearly not. The issue is that problem cannot be fixed from the bottom up, there is little control at our level and frankly I am not putting myself out of a job to make things better for you.

What a lot of the RAH guys seem to not understand is that if you get the best contract you help RAISE the bar for the rest of the industry. It doesn't put a target on your back. Sure XJET took a concessionary contract, but they still make MORE then a lot of other guys flying the same airplane. That's AFTER taking concessions. So please, don't fear shooting for the stars because it will put a bulleyes on your back. We must continue to work together, regardless of whether we are of the same union or not. We must be pilots in unity.

So please, don't fear shooting for the stars because it will put a bulleyes on your back[/quote]

I agree with this statement 100%. However, as much as I agree, it's largely not realistic. In an industy where we're nothing more than subcontractors, price is everything. The lower the price, the more security.

Note: this isnt picking on its just a difference of opinion. ;)

That same 45 year old has potentially 20 years left in this career. If they think their regional will be around for 20 more years with continued golden handcuffs then by all means stay. But truth is most people have had foggles on over the last 7 years because after 911 the regionals had a spurt but that peak has come and gone. Most mainline guys have seen the effects of scope relief and most groups are beginning to see the importance of stopping it. Look at DAL, CAL, AA and the 190s at Usair all are working towards fixing or stopping scope relief. On top of that look at the 50 seaters, most mainline carriers want less of them and most will agree their time is limited. As they are reduced you will see a net loss of aircraft reducing growth or shrinking at the regionals.

Also most guys at the regionals arent 45 years old and have even longer careers left ahead of them. They can risk being a lifer and maybe it works out but its just as likely it wont and then they are looking at starting over later on when they are older. It all depends on how you want to play your cards. Nothing says a mainline carrier will be around forever either but lets face it, the regionals are on the teets of the majors and if they go out the regionals are going with them. Yeah its tough to make the call to start over but if you're thinking long term its a no brainer. For me, i'm looking at 32-37 years left in this industry so moving on made sense. Taking the pay cut and starting over isnt fun but now on year 2 pay i'm already making more than i was when i left my previous CA position. Again each persons hand is different but if you take the avg regional captains age, then it should be a no brainer to move on.

Also a key point is that once the full effects of age 65 kick in you are going to see MASSIVE movement at the Marline level. Getting on now means being at the front of that. At DAL we are looking at 300-500 retirements a year coming up and that will go on for nearly 20 years. So based solely on attrition and not growth your talking about some serious potential. Risk vs Reward is different for everyone but to each their own. Thats just my 2 pennies worth so tifwiw

Then why not take a pay cut? Wouldnt that give you more security? Where does it stop?

Ask a 58 year old Air Wisconsin captain who has 28+ years longevity with the company, who thought he'd retire flying the 146 in and out of ASE for $120+/hr under a concessionary contract, who is now living on or commuting to the east coast to fly a CRJ2 for substantially less money and 3-4 hotels per month, what his satisfaction level with the progress of his career has been.

Then ask a senior Comair captain the exact same thing...or a former WestAir/ACA/Independence captain.

I understand the situation today is different, but to think that story couldn't be repeated at RJET in the future would be extremely naive.

Just wait till those Embraer's get a little age on them. After all it is an Embraer, it can be as shiny and nice when you first get it but it'll start going down the crapper eventually.

You could ask the same thing to a TWA or USair/America West pilot.....

Risk vs Reward, thats all there is to it. Looking longterm, the upside of the majors is still going to be better than the potential upside of the regionals. No matter how its sliced, the massive amount of retirements that are coming in the near future will show that the majors are where the next big movement will be. imho

It's very realistic. What do you think provides a pilot group with leverage for pay increases during contract negotiations? Industry standard. How do we increase it? By using those other pilot groups payrates flying the same or comparable equipment. Each pilot group uses it peers as a step in the ladder. To fear being a target for concessions because you shot for higher payrates is ridiculous. Please, let's try and help each other.

Lee Moak has been getting an earful from a lot of the DAL pilot group about scope & how further relaxation is unacceptable. We know scope recapture is a steep slope, but we are ready to fight for it. We wont just give up because it seems unrealistic. None of us got into this industry with dreams of flying for a regional for our entire career. I want to help bring jobs back to Mainline. RAH guys can help bring better pay.

I agree 100% but you and I are young. Someone who's older with a nice schedule and decent pay at a regional might not feel the same way. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

It's so sad some RAH guys can't see the light. Just because you haven't had a string of bad MX issues doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I used to hear all the time pilots call the E-170/175 the E-180. The thing always had to do a mid air 180 to come back because of a problem they were having. FIGHT FOR WHAT'S RIGHT! Good pay, trip/duty rigs, higher per diem, leg by leg, day by day cancellation pay for both WX and MX issues, 100% deadhead pay. And you say you don't want to reach for the stars so you don't have a bulls eye on your back? That is most saddest thing I have every herd. So, with that mentality, we all should sit back and just take what comes to you? THIS IS YOUR CAREER! *******it, stand up for what's right, don't roll over on your back and take it. This job isn't a normal 9-5 job; this job is a freakin bear if you don't have a good contract. I can think of about 25 to 40 times my contract has saved me money, made me money, or increased my QOL. We are so intertwined with our jobs you don't just fight for you job, you fight for a better quality of life man!

Ohh and to the poster who said you don't want to be the top dog, just munch on this for awhile. I am willing to wager that your seniority list is vastly younger then mine. With that comes longevity pay, or lack there of, in your case. At AWAC, we have a very, very senior pilot group with a decent pay scale that causes us to be extremely expensive. However, I see the day when our seniority list becomes much younger and our pilot costs go way down, compared to RAH's or others. However, with this, I also see RAH's costs going up due to the simple factor of alot of guys seem to enjoy it there, as evident by numerous posters saying that they content with 100k a year and 16 days off. I see the same thing happening at Comair/ExpressJet, with their costs going down. Also, as those nice, new E-170/175 become older, and break down more and more, your costs are going to skyrocket, not to mention the push to start bringing scope back to a more normal level. It should be interesting.

I agree which is why i said it depends on each persons hand. If a guy is 50 and very senior then sure i can see why they would stay. But the truth is the majority of guys at the regionals arent 45+ years old. Most guys even the young guys who are senior at the regionals need to start looking past their noses. The only reason they shot up the lists like they did over the last 7 years was because of 9/11. That skewed the reality of a lot of people. Yeah the regionals have been cushy for schedules and decent money for young guys but how long will it last? Most CA's at the regionals arent making 100k with 16 days off a month that was my only point. Even with concessionary contracts the majors still have much better payscales and they should start getting better again.

But like you said its all in the eyes of the beholder.

Anybody else have the feeling that Skywest and Republic have reached their pinnacle and potentially things could turn south sooner rather than later?

Just wait until UAL files for BK........................

No. There's other growth opportunities out there. US Air(if any flying is needed if Mesa goes BK), F9, Mok, Alaska, and CAL(if any flying is needed if XJT goes BK). I don't expect Midwest to last but it only has to go till June to have been a complete profit for the company.

Where is this info comming from?

I can see how that looks too definitive. I meant if they were to declare BK. I'm going to go edit it.

You mean if XJT declares Chapter 7 and not Chapter 11, right TD?

I agree with you SAAB. More so RAH i would say before skywest.

No not really. Did I mention Chapter 7 or Chapter 11?

Probably because when they hit 2nd yr pay they're making $122 an hour, and it only goes up from there. Bad example man.

That was the point of the example. That there is more to it that just that one number. That sometimes it's pushed out of context.

No....but its hard to believe a simple reorganization under Ch. 11 would cause XJT to lose any business with Continental, whereas a liquidation would under Ch. 7 certainly would.

Maybe for you but not for myself considering how hard CAL has already tried in the past. The same reason MESA has been fighting so hard to stay out of BK can be applied here. BK means that they are not financially stable and opens the door for contract cancellation or modification. XJT does not own it's own aircraft and does not have very many assets to leverage. The best they could do is renegotiate current debt. I have no doubt that CAL would use that to at least downsize their portion of flying with them to source out to others so that their eggs are not all in one basket. Since a regional's cash flow is direct and constant from the majors, unless branded, their future is usually sealed with a declaration of BK. Especially in today's environment. It's far more than a simple reorganization when the revenue is all from one direct source especially when a very large chunk of your expenses go right back into that sources pockets. If XJT goes BK and CAL thinks they can't pay the lease agreements on those aircraft they can farm that flying out to anyone else regardless of what's in their contract.

Nothing would make you happier, would it?!