fosters, who do you fly for to make 70 thousand total the first 2 years.

Minimum days off at Colgan is 10, not 8. I know, still not great. If he is still on reserve after 8 months, he chooses to be. By that I mean staying in the base he is in. He could easily transfer to another base, be more senior and hold a higher paying line.

Yea you're right. I did catch the expansion well. I upgraded in 14 months. I was lucky there. And one downside of Colgan (regardless of my positive opinion of the company) is the guys who get assigned to the Beech have to go through the left chair on the Beech for a year before seeing the left seat of the SAAB. I do believe more expansion is about to happen.

As the upgrade times have lengthen out to 18 months or so the company knows they have a problem with second year pay for FO's. I think there may be a pay raise coming there. Up until six months ago it wasn't an issue, because second year pay was at the captain's rate. Fosters, what do you think at your company your total pay would be over four or five years, with the current upgrade times?

We've had two without types get interviews, one was successful (the unsuccessful one is at JetBlue now). SWA says about 20% of those they are interviewing now don't have it and typically those candidates have between 2200 and 2800 pic instead of the average of 1800 pic. Continental is my first choice but as I get closer the 1600 pic mark, I may go get the type. SWA would be a great place to be. I never thought I would ever get the chance to even apply to a major.

Couldn't have said it better. Nice post.

Maybe he miscounted, but that's what he told me. Yes I agree about staying put vs. moving to a junior base.

Current upgrade times are running just shy of 3 years, due to a major amount of attrition.

Note figures below include per diem (about $5,000 per years worth), but do not include 401(k) company match. They are also based on getting lines in the 90-hour area.

1st year - $30k Total so far: $30k
2nd year - $40k Total so far: $70k
3rd year - $40k Total so far: $110k
4th year (CA) - $70k Total so far: $180k
5th year (CA) - $73k Total so far: $253k

Keep in mind these figures are for people who actually WORK, not sit reserve (either by choice or because that's what they can hold) and for people that bid high credit lines. It seems most people are bidding the commuter friendly schedules, which makes most of the high credit lines (ie 90+ hours) available for the junior guys who live in base.

I talked to a sixth year CA who's W2 showed $80k last year. Not bad. The reason being they were REALLY short of CA's (and still are, to some extent) and have to junior man people (1.5 pay). HOWEVER, that being said, YOU are in the better postion because YOU have the turbine PIC NOW, not later. All things considered, upgrade at Colgan will be less than most other carriers, unless one happens to see rapid expansion.

The pay rates listed here are misleading. I flew 55 hours of FAR block time in April but credited 102 hours. This month I will be close to 100 as well, same goes for June. I'm also a junior FO.

I work for a US Air feeder.

Skyhigh, this is why so many of us have thought you're out to lunch. The fact is there are many other jobs guys with our brains and skills can do for a good wage with some upward mobility. You insist the pilot proffesion will never pay high wages again. I disagree because of the competing careers out there. Time will tell. Wish the Alaska pilots luck. We are going to try to stop the slide with our next contract. We start negotiations now.

Fosters - thanks for posting this. I think this conversation is important. Here are similar numbers for Colgan. I used 90 hours average pay credit for the Saab and 95 for the Beech (they work more hours). I'm also assuming these figures are for guys who actually work instead of always bidding for the most days off. Lastly, I'm assuming guys come into the company with at least 1000 hours (we do hire less) and therefor can upgrade when their seniority number comes up. I've broken it down into Beech, Saab NE, and Saab Texas. Saab pilots in Texas do multi-day trips if they want and those that do will pick up an additional $2500 to $3000 annually in per diem. I've also added PIC time. In addition, upgrade (if you have the time) on the Beech can be less than a year. I've used one year. I have also assumed the Beech guy will transition to the Saab at the end of his second year. Upgrade on the Saab is 18 months.

Year - Beech - PIC - Saab NE - Saab TX - PIC
1 - $22.8k - 0000 - $22.7k - $25.7k - 0000
2 - $36.5k - 0750 - $35.1k - $38.1k - 0350
3 - $46.4k - 1500 - $46.4k - $49.4k - 1100
4 - $48.6k - 2250 - $48.6k - $51.6k - 1850
5 - $49.7k - 3000 - $49.7k - $52.7k - 2600

Total - $204k - - $203k - - $217k

So our total pay is about 35 - 50k less than yours as I suspected. But here's the difference for me. I'm two years ahead (on the career path) of a guy at a company with a three year upgrade (or more) because by the end of my third year I have 1100 to 1500 hours of turbine pic time. There're still waiting for upgrade. Two things - we all know this career can be unstable and have it's ups and downs. And without turbine pic time the next level is all but impossible to get to. At Colgan I've only been exposed to 1 to 2 years of something happening as opposed to 3 or more years elsewhere (just ask a senior Eagle FO how many times he has "almost" made it to upgrade only to be pushed back). In this environment miminizing time in the right seat (unless you have the age to spare) is very important at the sub-major / sub - career destination level. So my risk exposure is at least 30% less. Secondly, lets say I get lucky and get picked up by a major in my fourth or fifth year (which is happening here at Colgan). I'm now at least two years ahead of them which means at the very least I'll have two more years on my career as a captain. Since senior captains' salaries at majors are roughly 70K more than senior FO's, that's at least an additional $140k I will make in my career (actually more because of senority) because I got the turbine PIC time quicker.

This was an important analysis for me (I'm over 40). It's why one of my biggest priorities was a quick upgrade. I'm resistant to furlough, I've got PIC time, and just maybe a few more years at the next level. That said I also have made the decision that I'll stay at Colgan if I don't get hired at CAL, SWA, etc. I've built my life now around that potential possibility and resultant pay scales.

How do you block 55 hours and get paid for 102? Typically I block 78 - 85 hours and get paid 90 - 100 (I averaged 93 pay credit hours per month in the last year). I've heard this before at other regionals and have always wondered...

Point
 

My position is that aviation is unlike other professions due to the "shinny jet syndrome". It is not a real job anymore and is becoming more of a working hobby. In addition it is much easier to work for the airlines now that we have highly automated airplanes with GPS and glass cockpits. Airlines don't really require a difficult search to find a large and growing population of eager pilots. As evidence when the regionals started hiring new pilots with 600 hours to fly the RJ it was over. Another fact is that the majors have been rapidly raising their minimums to compensate for the flood of overqualified pilot applicants. Why would they pay any more? How can the airlines pay more when the competition is offering the same product for less others must follow?

Aviation is becoming more of a religion to the younger generation. They almost seem offended when I suggest that 50K is not a whole lot of money to fly as a regional captain. It almost seems that they are prepared to work for free. I wish things were different. I am sure that many here think my ideas are crazy, but what other alternative do they have?

SKyHigh

the only reason why the pay is this low is because people are excited to take these jobs at 20k. if everyone puts their foot down then the pay will go up.

Ok, how? Unions? Work "slow down?"

Foot Down
 

Who will be the first to stand up and quit flying? If you did there would be three more to take your job. Even now I am sure that there are people who would do your job at half the wage. There isn't a line up to be plumbers at half the wage or to be construction managers. Aviation is different it isn't a real job anymore. People will do it for the experience alone.

SkyHigh