PAY - Idea
 

I apologize if this has been brought up before or may sound cliché... But I've been thinking.

If they would add 25 cents to the total cost of a ticket per passenger per hour of flight, and give it to the F/O, or even split it between the captain and the F/O, this would help bring the F/O above the poverty line. This would add up to like 700 extra dollars per month (On a 37 seater with seats filled) if it were just going to the F/O... No one would complain about the quarter either.

Why hasn't this been considered?

re
 

b/c its impractical, trashy to do, and your hat must be on your head not held out for pax to toss quarters in like your name s Toll Booth Willy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!JK!! The first two reasons I know , have never stopped the airlines before but they are pretty stuck on this hat thing

Because you are already willing to take the job at the poverty level. Simple supply and demand.

If I could just get everyone in the United States to give me $0.01 I would be a multi-thousandaire. I think it's a great idea and it wouldn't hurt anyone to do it. Just go to makemerichb!tch.com and start giving...

Here is why this won't work:

Ticket prices need to be low. Costs needs to be even lower in order to juice any profit margin out that can be gotten.

Raising ticket price is against this logic. Its reduces the competitive edge for that company = less money for the company (not you).

If the ticket prices could be raised, even a cent, the profit gained wouldn't go to you. It is the airline's ticket, their seat, their airplane, their route, their contract, their name, etc. You are seat meat - instantly replaceable by the next guy in line.

Pilots are LABOR. We don't feel that way, but they do. The "Salaries/Wages" line item needs to be as low as it can be. Regardless of how low it goes, people still sign up. If it weren't for the unions, F/O pay would rival that of a 16 year old flipping burgers and pilots would still sign up - I promise you they would.

Once again, it sucks, but it is just the way it is. Unions are a double edged sword, but you can thank them profusely for the fact that your pay is even $22/hour. The market supply of pilots could drive that way lower if it was allowed to.

Yep, that's why it needs to be put in as regulation.. Like a "security fee" or something... Throw it into the "Passenger Safety Act" as the "Crewmember Safety Fee"... That way the airline wouldn't be able to co-opt that extra money for executive bonuses AND it wouldn't give any one airline an competitive advantage...

how about this? we are labor, a completely normal business expense! how about they charge enough to make a profit and include that normal cost of operation (including fair pay rates) in their price. cmon, forget the fees, charge what it costs to cover your expenses.

I know there are some people out there who would fly a regional for $8.50 an hr just for "experience"....heck they would fly a 777 for $8.50 and hr if they had the chance!

They could, but why would they? They have furloughed FO's and thousands of CFI's all eager to come (back) to work for the current pay scale.

The only possible solution is either a long-term pilot shortage (not going to happen due to industry cycles) or a national pilot guild/union.

The national union (or coalition of unions) would have to have set payscale requirements for all aircraft types, as well as set payscales for general aviation, corporate, CFI, etc. Entry level pilots would not pay dues until they got a turbine job, or somesuch.

You could join the union as an apprentice the day you got your CPL, and there would be an incentive to work only at jobs which met the union pay standard. The incentive to participate at the entry level would be that airlines would preferentially hire union members...journeymen from other airlines, then apprentices off the street.

If you were sure that you never wanted to work at an airline, you could blow off the union, and do GA on your own. It would be kind of like the two kinds of plumbers...Union Plumbers and Turd Chasers.

You could assemble a coalition of unions pretty easily, and probably agree on a minimum pay scale which would become applicable for each pilot group at their next contract. The hard part would be that each local union would have to negotiate control over the hiring process, at least to the extent that non-union pilots would only be hired as a last resort. Many companies would resist this provision to the death. Actually it would be GOOD for the airlines...higher payscales would attract higher quality pilots, and they would have a better selection of applicants to choose from.

But now is the time to do it, with so many major contracts due.

The answer is that this is already being done, only, that quarter is being short-stopped by the airline to repay themselves for the high costs of training you to fly the airplane you are now flying.

So add another quarter... And don't allow it to go to the exec's fat christmas bonuses either.

These decisions are all made by management. If they do decide to raise fares, they are certainly going to pocket the extra, not give it to regional FO's.

The best pay idea you can have is to quit flying. Regionals follow industry standards, there is no way in hell that they would raise pilot pay out of generosity. All of them are the lowest bidders, you can think about pay when you go to an airline that makes their own business.

Perhaps you should have paid attention in those college classes you claimed to take on that other thread..

There is only one person concerned with how much you are making.. you.

As was stated before, you already agreed to work for a pre-determined rate, so why do you deserve more?

Business 101: the goal of any company: increase shareholder wealth. Any tax/fee/addendum to ticket prices which tranlates to profit belongs to the shareholders or owner of the company, not you.

If you are suggesting that the government step in and tax passengers to subsidize your lifestyle, then I cringe at the pandora's box that would open.

Sorry, business 101 was not required in my major.

It would have been a good elective

They're right -- best and only thing you can do is leave for greener pastures. Or negotiate more next contract of course...but good luck with that LoL

Why should they when you're willing to work for the peanuts you get.

Ayep...I'm looking for my own way out. Tired of flying a Jet at $35. They can have it.

It kills me to say that $35/hr ain't bad compared to what I was making as a Regional wh.re :o

Why? I already know how this stuff works... Every action by management/executive has one purpose in mind. Make the rich richer, and make sure the poor stays that way... And middle managements job is kind of the same - just make sure you take all of the credit for their peon's work so they remain a peon and don't commandeer their middle management job... Also it doesn't matter what you know, it's who you know, and where you started (how rich your parents were). This is how your position is determined. I don't need to **** away money on some scam course to learn that lesson... 4+ years in Corporate America has taught me this lesson time and time again.

If you know all the answers then why start this thread? You know the pay going in. Ball is always in your court, stay or go.

And my position has been determined by hard work and due paying. Nothing to do with my parents wealth or lack of. My position is what I made it.

You clearly have never been to a major university. I don't know where your aggression for colleges came from, but it is far off base. You have this preconceived notion that all university students come from ultra affluent families and sit around and count their money all day until daddy gets them a job. This could not be further from the truth. College students come from all economical, social and racial backgrounds. The majority of my college buddies paid for their school and came from regular middle class families. Of course Corporate America is all about who you know, but guess what so is every other industry. I got everyone of my construction jobs during school because I knew someone not because I was an ace with a hammer. If you do not like how corporate America is run then go get a college education (MBA) promote yourself through the ranks and change it the way you would like it. I did not come from a rich family in fact far from it, but every time things don't go my way I do not blame the wealthy. I have been fortunate to grow up in such a great country that I have been afforded the same opportunities as my rich friends. You need to stop rationalizing and pointing fingers at the wealthy last time I checked you were not a serf and they do not control any aspect of your life. You clearly have you mind set against college but in the end no matter how you rationalize it, you are only hurting your professional career.

I'd hate to live as the EFFECT of everything around me like you do. Why not step up to the plate and be at cause over your life? Don't hate the players, hate the game. We are all born on the starting line. What you do with your life is up to you. The rich are that way because they played the game differently then the poor. There is no such thing as entitlement. Wealth doesn't just exist. It is created and earned. One of the side effects of the free market system is that the workers do not enjoy the fruits - the owners do. So go be an owner.

The reality, again, is that people look after #1 first. If you get poor in the process, so be it. If you choose to work for someone, you are handing your life over to them. You'll get screwed in the end more than likely. YOUR PURPOSE IS TO SUIT YOURSELF, AS WELL. If you ran a company, you'd pay the minimum you could pay to your employees and still get the job done at the end of the day.

That is part of the divide in this country. There are those who own and those who do not. Those who own (and do well at it) take home the pork. Those who merely work for those who own will never reap the true rewards of their work. Its reality.

Unless you are loaded and can start your own airline, you'd better not be a pro pilot b/c you'll be condemned to "employee status" for your whole career. With I.T. (isn't that what you do?) you can actually create a business if you want to. Run correctly, you could lap most airline pilot salaries quite easily.

Ownership isn't everything though. You can make money being a worker. The trick is knowing the right people. And many of us will never learn that trick.

Winner Winner, Chicken Dinner.

I've been on a warpath lately... Things haven't been going well at work, or in my life... So I apologize to anyone I may have offended. I've enjoyed reading all of your responses and viewpoints tho, for what it's worth. I respect every one of you that listened to what I had to say and responding respectfully and accordingly.

When it comes down to it, money isn't that important to me. All I want to do is not have to work in an office anymore, fly, and make an OK living doing so. (A house maybe, a car, and a vacation once or twice a year...)

Our system is certainly not fair tho. Hard work does not equal better life. Neither does intelligence. I still stand by my opinion on that. Playing their game in an attempt to get to the top to try to change part of the rules would never work. They say more damage can be done from the inside, but I believe that more damage can be done from the outside as long as you have like minded people with you throwing the rocks. Most of this country is just sleepwalking their way thru life, and living in their suburban fantasy world created in their heads accepting whatever shaft is forced upon them without question.

In this "great" country, people do NOT have equal opportunity. Ask the kids attending (or dropping out of) Chester High in PA, or any public high school in North Philly, or Harlem. It's the ghetto. I can GUARENTEE you they don't have their choice of what prestigious university they want to attend at their feet. But you get all fat and happy because you had the choice as the American dream would advertise, but you forget about the rest of the world (or country) that is less fortunate. Some people grow up not even knowing what a University is.

Answered my own question when I re-read it in my email... this can be deleted.. thx

In the lottery, everyone has the same opportunity to choose the winning numbers. To my knowledge, there has never been a person who won the megga millions more than once.

In poker tournaments, each player starts with the same number of chips. Each player has the same opportunity. Yet, year in and year out, 20-30 folks take the lion's share of the winnings. A few have won the more than one World Series bracelet.



In my experience as a high school teacher (in a less than savory district), I saw some dirt poor kids do pretty well. I agree, none had to choose which ivy league school to attend, but those who fought for it, found a way to a trade school, community college, or the local state university. I don't believe any of them are hanging out with the Hiltons, but many improved their stature.

It is unrealistic to think that anyone of us can go from dirt poor to Rockefeller rich.... just because we are "above average". But with hard work, cultivating the right contacts, and making fewer dumb choices, each of us can improve our life.

So whats your solution?

And that in turn gives our children and family members a better opportunity to improve their lives.

The rich got rich through hard work at some point in their family line... You could get the ball rolling for your family.

I don't agree with that. Look at the President, not because of his color but his background. He was born a nobody and a minority at that with no traditional parents. If that is not equal opportunity. I don't know what to tell you. As far as the ghetto, it's about probability not because of opportunity. Someone from the ghetto is less likely to do well in school, which means no college, which means no career, which means poverty. It's a cycle.

The rich got rich by lying, cheating, stealing land and forcing the poor to work in horrible conditions for less than poverty wages and then passed down wealth through generations. There are very few 'rich' families around who got there by respectable means. Rich people are some of the most morally corrupt people (some, not all but some) but my thinking is mush more socialist than most people's.

We have more opportunities than most people in other countries could ever hope for and yes some people do fail at realizing the American dream.
It's what you do with said opportunity that counts.

Fred

BTW cute avatar JS.

First year FO pay is almost the same as a 16 year old flipping burgers. Think about this, if you got a regular job, 40 hours a week, you only need to make $10.31 an hour to match a first year FO pay. Heck, you don't really need anything above a HS diploma (if you even need that)to make $10.31 an hour, but instead you spend $20K to $50K for flight school and more for a college education...and wind up making the same thing.
But hey, you didn't have to accept the low pay. You could have went somewhere else, I suppose. If people stopped taking the job for the low pay, something would have to be done. Then again, the government would probably make Airline Pilot a government position and fire everyone (like ATC in the 80's).

As far as airline ticket prices, you should never be able to fly in a plane cheaper than it is to drive your car! That's that. Raise the prices to where they once were and people will still fly, not as often, but still fly. Business travelers will continue to fly, it's a requirement in the global market. People will take their vacation once a year, after saving for it, instead of showing up in their pajamas and jetting off to grandma's once a month for $100.

NYC to Disney - 1,113 miles
Airline ticket $89.00 ($0.079 per mile), 2.5 hours
Auto - $140.00 gas (at $2.50 average price), 17.5 hours

If your time is worth anything, that needs to be figured in too (let's face it, people fly because it saves time). So, what is your passenger's time worth? Let's just use $10 an hour as an example (Burger flipper heading to Disney).

Savings by flying - 15 hours
Gas - $140.00
Time - $150.00
Total $290.00 (not including regular operating cost such as oil & maintenance. Also, not including food stops along the way.)

So, a ticket from JFK to MCO, one way, should never sell below $290.00

Some peoples time is worth much more than $10 an hour, this was just a simple example.

This is likely a rhetorical question. But personally, I resigned from my first regional job for this very reason. I am worth more than this.

Flying is now a hobby again. I am enjoying teaching people and enjoy zooming around at 2,000 feet with no SOP.

But you can kill one ant on the ant hill and it doesn't go away. When hiring comes, there will be plenty of guys willing to take my seat for no pay. The problem will continue ad infinitum. It is the nature of doing a thing that so many love to do for a living.

If they could get 25 cents more per pax, they would... and they would keep it themselves, since it is already a given that if you won't take the job for poverty wages and a non existant quality of life...
the next guy will.

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