Keep trying to convince yourself of that.

If you want someone to welcome you in the future, don't blatantly steal from them now!

100 seater flying is mainline flying. Where do you wanna go? Mainline?

OOPS! :eek:

JJ

You hit it on the head...

Though I would add two points. First, placing sole blame for scope on the MEC's of mainline airlines is akin to saying a rape victim had it coming. Airline management is very organized in response to labor and has been playing for this end game for a very long time. They are the real enemy. By offering carrots to certain segments of mainline pilots and strategic utilization of the bankruptcy process they have continued to move the bar. The only way the bar stops moving is if we "all" hold the line when we have the chance, whether in terms of scope clause or negotiating an industry leading contract.

Second point. It concerns me how many regional pilots are content with status quo pay rates. Don't you think management relishes every time you say you don't want industry leading pay or feel mainline pilots are overpaid. If no one goes up in pay and everyone seeks the average the average goes down. If you are not flying for across the board industry leading rates then there is work to do. I am not saying it should happen at once, but regionals need to start incrementaly leap-frogging each other up, not down.

WJI

Forget it dude.

The Comair guys went on strike for three months to address that very issue. They had the right idea but didn't get the required support. Quite the opposite. Rather than unite, other "certain" regionals saw blood in the water and acted. Now, we all have to pay.

Who knew? :rolleyes:

JJ

Johnso29 with all due respect not a single one of us came here because it was an alter-ego regional or anything of that nature. There was never talk of 190s when I was hired. I had no part in the process and no say. This isn't like the Freedom A listers and the GoJet guys. This isn't like the scabs at CAL. This is management and unless our management is applying at other airlines I don't see any reason why I'd be faulted for someone elses hole in a contract.

Will the RAH guys make a stand or play the game?

You play the game, you get the name. You take that name to interview. If you get an interview.

JJ

Well you sound like a person with years of experience. Eastern? CAL? UAL? NWA? Which strike did YOU walk the picket line on? Or were you pushed in a stroller?

You have no idea what you are talking about; you are trying to prove the size of your cojones with a lot of cheap talk. When you've been on one of those lines, like many of us have, then you can talk. You (if you're MidEx) are not on strike, so no one has crossed your picket line.

Informational pickets don't count.

If you have a gripe it's with ALPA National for not having the balls or the leadership to do anything. They decided you, like others, weren't worth standing up for. So they cut you and your MEC loose.

Don't cheapen the fight that I and thousands of others took on by using words you obviously don't understand.

I agree things are way behind the curve, but you're illustrating my point. Comair can't push up alone, those "other" regionals need to raise the bar, so Comair has more leverage next time around. I respect what Comair pilot's were doing. Each negotiation is different, different market conditions, different hiring trends, different playing fields. Wisdom is in knowing how far you can push and settling there. Unfortunately, not everyone is willing to push as hard.

My concern is not what a group is able to gain, but the sense that they feel they earn "enough".

WJI

No disrespect intended TD. This is a bitter pill for a lot of us to swallow, but it's happening. The argument of who gave up scope is pointless. We have to work together, & all we fellow pilots can ask of the RAH pilot group is that you fight for industry leading rates. Just as you should ask of other fellow pilots when they are faced with new equipment & contract negotiations. Management has played us against each other for years, & hopefully this period of stagnation will anger enough of us othat we fight management.

I also wasn't implying that RAH pilots will be blacklisted, just that a very small chance exists that someone may hold it against an applicant.

Good Luck to the RAH Pilot group. Many many other pilots are counting on you.

You can be furloughee #1 for all I care.

Yes, you've made it abundantly clear that you're more than ready to throw an entire pilot group under the bus for an action that group may or may not take in response to an agreement made between two management groups. Ironic, then, that you want that pilot group to turn around and support you in "brotherhood" or "unity" or whatever you want to call it.

Like many who frequent these threads, I understand quite a bit through experience. Do not presume to tell me I have only watched the fight from afar.

I walked with my brothers and sisters. Did you?


JJ

I wanted them to support me BEFORE flying the 1st replacement 170. It's too late for that now. I realize the backstabbing nature of Bedford and his enablers. I do not expect that to change in the future.

What is funny is the Midwest guys were thrown under the bus here (rather than the hypothetical you or I speak of), where was your concern for them? Oh yeah, management forced you to fly the 170's, boo hoo.

And the band played on !
 

From reading some of these post's in here it look's like management has done it's job since you fella's are fighting amongst yourselve's .
Gotta hand it to the bean counter's they played everyone like a fiddle and some of you fell for it ,hook ,line and sinker .
Might want to take the fight to management instead of each other and it might just get better result's.
Y'all fly safe now!

Fred

What EXACTLY was the RAH pilot group supposed to do to support you? I guess what I'm saying is, had you been one of us in this situation, what Exactly would you have done? And maybe you could own up to just a tiny bit of the demise of your pilot group as opposed to blaming the entire thing on RAH. Naw, I doubt it.

I am a furloughed RAH pilot, next on the recall list and, as crappy as it is, looking at the possibility of getting a job back with these 190s coming on board. :mad:

However should Midwest Pilots show up to the airport in uniform with picket signs on the day I'm called back (or any other day for that matter) I will stand beside them, in full RAH uniform with my picket sign. For once, stop blowing your mouths off on a forum and DO SOMETHING!! Midwest guys, hell any pilot out there that is sick of this... where are you?? where are your signs??? where is you line??? How can you expect us (RAH pilots) to be able the carry the entire weight of your indifference and overall apathy of this industry?

Please stop blaming us for this sh!tfest.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil (management) is that good men (pilots) do nothing.


and here we are in the industry...what do you suppose has happened to get us here??

You mean the $hitfest that is RAH? The pilots of RAH have had a long, long time to make a stand. They just never did.

I don't see an overall apathy in this industry. What I do see, at certain carriers, is a willingness to degrade the profession and RAH continues to excel in that department.

This latest outrage is typical RAH. Why should any pilot in this industry expect anything else?

Let's face it, RAH are not known for raising any bars in this industry. Quite the opposite.

Yes, I'm being blunt but I speak the truth.

Don't like the name? Quit playing the game!
And, trust me, you guys have got the name!


JJ

Put your money where your mouth is. Where are you forming a line?

So you plan on sweet talking us.......

oh yeah...whispering sweet nothingness into your head. Now, shouldn't you be over on the Mokulele forums defending BB in Hukahukakumonaiwannalaya or whatever or are you strictly midwest now? Actually...looks like your furloughed, "why don't you just hang back and stretch?"

Anyone on here know when tduck is headed over to MKE to pick up his 190? When's that go in effect for Tduck... because because i have a feeling there will be no stopping him gunnin' for the big one in MKE and i want to see his Sh*t eating grin from those big windows high over the rest of the world.... or wherever midwest goes that is.:D miss u

Thats funny, considering I know who Toilet duck is, he flies a 145 and you fly a CRJ9. A bit hypocritical, don't you think?

Considering my posting on the subject you'd be hard pressed to find anyone more against these aircraft than me. I've never flown midwest as pilot or pax. I'm far from furloughed. I fly the erj-140 at a nice 44 pax. What about you? You fly the 900 so tone it down a notch.

As far as "You guys never took a stand" goes I seem to recall both Midwest and RAH pilots finding out the same day from the same press release. I also recall that the RAH MEC and Midwest MEC made joint statements to the press about their distaste about this. I also seem to remember RAH pilots doing an informational picket with the Midwest guys.

What more are you expecting the RAH guys to do that won't get them fired? You expect them to not show up to work, get fired, then have a black mark on their record so they are never hired anywhere else in the future because of a large gap in someone's contract? I'm sorry this has happened but it's not at our feet. I won't speak on behalf of any pilot that works here but I have no guilt and I don't owe anyone anything. I didn't take any flying. My company didn't take any flying. The pilots at Midwest gave it away just like the other majors have over the years which is why we have 170s. They started out at T-props and now have 170s and crj900s. This is the progression of the industry due to the mainlines tightening their belts and the top 51% selling out the bottom 49% at the mainline level. Each and every jet that exist at a regional level is there because at some point pilots at the mainline level relaxed in their contract or didn't argue for it. Same in this case. The pilots at Midwest voted on a contract that didn't have scope protection. I don't know what was expected from that but here's what lack of foresight earns you. CAL and SWA have the best scope protection in the industry and it shows. Due to their pilots taking a stand on these issues they get to reap the rewards.... Sorry but I don't owe you anything 320toBearz. I never did and I don't feel the others here do either. Considering your public denouncement of all those here I think the industry is better without people of your caliber/professionalism and I won't lose an ounce of sleep if I never see you in it again.

Let me know when you've been part of a pilot group who's real sacrafice, integrity, and resolve has raised the bar for all. Then, we'll share some common ground. ;)


RAH is making headlines all over the internet again and not in a good way.

Don't ask what others are doing when your guys are continuing to let the profession down. Look within!


JJ

Wow honestly toiletduck I would stop posting on this matter because you're losing credibility on each and every post. On the above paragraph replace Midwest with TSA and pretend like you are a Gojet pilot. It's exactly the same argument, scope. You will be shocked at your rationalization. All of the above is the standard BS argument of an appeaser. You don't even fly a 170 and you're defending the RAH replacement workers for the 270 or more mainline pilots.

And you fly a Boeing????

Please understand the RLA before typing in your next response.

Nothing about us is anything like TSA and Gojet. It's been said many times before. The pilots at Gojet had a choice to go there knowing what they were doing to others. We found out in a press release a few days ago and are trying to stop this from happenening with the union. So it may take some time, but we will make this right. So until you have something constructive to say that might help bring up the bar in this industry, please stop throwing dirt and bringing the bar down in this industry. Refer to my last post and help me, tell me what Exactly we can do to fix this situation.

It wasn't about GJ/TSA I was talking about his appeaser mentality. And actually you're right the GJ thing doesn't hold a candle to regionals flying mainline it's about 100 times worse because of the implications. You guys will be bottom of the barrel. Stop the company from flying the 190s. You have a union don't you? You do have a choice. But anyways you're one of those guys celebrating and after about 200 posts nothing is getting through to you that you will be considered scum and that you company is going to seal the fate of the regionals in the years to come as well as the majors for that matter.

I'd like to hear about such a group. What was their name again?

You hit the nail right on the head! The problem is that most of the peops on here are spoiled rotten brats who don't care about "being on the street", because they never will be. Mommy and daddy will always be there. For the rest of us, who actually have bills to pay and kids to tend to, these decisions to "boycott" are a little easier said than done!

Oh ok. So now we're worse than Gojets. Yes we do have a union, which hasn't even said anything about this situation. Maybe they care about us as much as ALPA did for Midwest. Like I said in many of my previos posts. Until you have something more constructive to say than "stop the company from flying the 190s", then give it a rest. We are trying to get an official response from our leaders to fix this situation. Your generic response is of just don't fly them is expected though, because if you had a feasable answer, I'm sure you'de share it. In fact no one has had an answer other than a generic, just don't fly them.

I agree with you. It is not like RAH is flying the 190's the day after the announcement. This whole operation is going to take time to get everything sorted.

If midwest pilots strike, we cannot fly the routes anyway according to the contract. Also if there is actually 100 seats, there is another section of the contract that needs to be debated on by union and management before we can fly them. Not to mention a wheel barrel load of other variables that can happen as well. Not to mention, I love how everyone thinks that they have a choice in this. Like the union wrote a group letter to BB asking for the 190's, ridiculous.

Everyone needs to put away their torches and pitchforks until all the details are ironed out.

lets be honest here. if E190s were to go to each and every regional in the country, there isn't a pilot here that could say with a straight face that he/she would walk out on his job. it's not RAH to blame, it's the regionals as a whole. no regional is better than the other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beechlover
I've been in this industry now for 3 years. Been reading the boards quite a bit in that time as well. To be honest.., based on what I've seen, and read, and heard, I feel that this "solidarity" so many speak of is a myth, or at the very least a reality I will never see in this industry based on the apathy and indifference that exist. That and the "I got mine crowd" seem to me to be the biggest impediment to bringing any solidarity to this profession. We need a fundemental paradigm shift before any EFFECTIVE change will occur. Not likely to occur in my opinion. At this point in my career, my priorities are my health, my family, my career.

At no point in any of these threads have I felt the true spirit of solidarity that compelled me to change my actions with regards to doing my job or make a self sacrifice (read: fall on my own sword) so that those higher in seniority could continue to enjoy job security, prestige and, great pay. Sorry that's how I see it.

With regard to the E-190, do you seriously think that ANY pilot who cares about their family, their livelyhood, and being out on the street in THIS economy, Is gonna ACTUALLY refuse to fly it??? I don't know what world these folks live in, but I tend to focus on the real world.

Employment at the "Legacy Carriers" is becoming less and less attractive to me these days. Don't think I'm gonna be heading in that direction. Threats are a little school yard don't ya think?

Pilots don't get to choose what aircraft their airlines fly, MANAGEMENT AND THE MARKETS make those decisions. THE ONLY thing we AS pilots have control over is the speed and altitude we chose to go from A to B. Not crazy about every decision thats been made by this airline's management, but that's life in the 121 world.

If or when it comes my time to fly the E 190, don't expect me to fall on my own sword. That is unless we all collectively intend to provide us (pilots who refuse to fly it) with either the unemployment income or another job..., any takers.., didn't think so.., so much for "solidarity."

I'm gonna continue to do my job as I would expect any professional pilot to do. If it makes you all happy, when or if our union ever gets it's collective self together, we'll see about better pay. Don't hold your breath. So there it is.., do with this what you will. Don't get me wrong, I love my profession, myjob and the folks I fly with, hell I even like who I fly for (RAH).

Imagine that, a pilot who actually enjoys working for the airline he flys for, what a concept.


Originally Posted by alvrb211

3 years huh?

I could have guessed that from the above post!


BTW, there are many major airline pilots out there who enjoy flying for their airline.
There just aren't many who want to see their management empowered by the willingness of bottom feeders like yourself.


Enjoy the regionals. Your myopia makes you taylor made for them.


JJ



Wether you realize or not.., you just made my point for me regarding solidarity. I don't claim to be the smartest guy in the world, but it seems to me that this WHOLE saga of regional expansion can be attributed to one thing..., SCOPE!!! When those who were senior to us all decided in their ultimate wisdom to relax scope (for whatever reason ie: prevent furloughs, save pensions, better pay etc.) I'd be willing to bet at the time, NO ONE imagined that there would be a day when a carrier with a regional pay scale would operate a hundred seat jet aircraft.

That single act (executed at carriers across the industry) opened a door!

I think that most who fly at the "Main Line" level carriers realize this and also know that the ONLY way to prevent any further damage is to LOCK DOWN their respective Scope clauses. The door HAS TO BE CLOSED in order for regional AND MAINLINE management teams to stop exploiting the now gaping hole this door has created.

Don't take my word for it.., take a look at the discussions on the "MAJORS" thread concerning E-190 flying. Seems they realize this all to well.

Correct. Giving up scope concessions for better pay then complaining about those who fly under the concessions isn't right.

This helps explains the Midwest management philosophy. Too bad some can't see it and continue to blame RAH for what is clearly a Midwest management decision.

Your trollish fear-mongering posts only show how desperate and afraid you are. It shows how weak your position is. It also shows how childish the supposedly more experienced "major airline professionals" can be when someone comes along with a better business model. You're an embarrassment to the profession JJ.

It's spelled "t-a-i-l-o-r", Mr. Airline Professional.

Wow... What a tool.

deleted....

Thread closed rather than giving out multiple infractions. If you can't post in a respectable manner, you're better off not posting at APC.