Thanks Zapata. Back to school for me.

From an outsiders perspective. It seems to me that wheresmyplane is speaking from a regional pilots perspective. In the regional world you can do your best as far as performance, but at contracts end the flying you do will be transfered to the lowest bidder who's pilots have a lesser labor contract. When performance numbers are similar the only differentiation is that one airlines pilot group is cheaper. AV8OR is speaking from a major perspective. Major pilots do the best they can to make the airline more money than the competing airline, but do not risk losing their flying to the competing airline based on their cheaper pilot group. Sure the company is going to argue that if you don't lower the pilot group costs they can't compete, but if you continue to do your job well and the company is making money there will be no concessions and certainly no loss of flying to the competitor due to your pilot contract.

Perhaps a better argument for wheresmyplane to make would be for a regional airlines union with one contract. This could possibly curb the problems faced by regional airlines by creating an even playing field instead of having us compete against each other primarily on pilot cost.

Av8or is kind of myopic in a way that he is incapable of seeing the big picture when it comes to piloting profession. In other words, it's all about him and his seniority that's strictly based on his date of hire.

What the man is incapable of seeing is that NSL idea or something along those lines gives pilots the ability to say NO to getting shafted by the carpetbagger management - the pilots are able to port their pay/"seniority" some place else that might pick up the pieces. In other words, we wouldn't be racing to the bottom because we're all divided. Look at all these people voting "YES" to crappy contracts... and why do they do that? Let's see... what's their alternative? 1st year pay some place else... or a concession. But hey... they'll be all over this board chest-thumping how everyone should vote NO!

Totally myopic and totally incapable of seeing the big picture...

"hemaybedid" - I believe "wheremyplane" is furloughed from a major airline but I see your point... I guess I never thought of it that way but it sort of makes sense...



Av8or is kind of myopic in a way that he is incapable of seeing the big picture when it comes to piloting profession. In other words, it's all about him and his seniority that's strictly based on his date of hire.

You can call it myopic I call it logical… I do not want you to pay my mortgage neither do I want your seniority number…

Are you saying that your job is not all about you? If not than I assume you’re donating some 40% or more of your pay and benefits to the “furloughed fund” correct? Because that’s what a NSL would do – people getting in front of you simply because they had bad luck at their previous company… Is it tragic for them, absolutely it is… However, that does not mean their misfortune should turn other peoples’ lives upside down…

What the man is incapable of seeing is that NSL idea or something along those lines gives pilots the ability to say NO to getting shafted by the carpetbagger management - the pilots are able to port their pay/"seniority" some place else that might pick up the pieces. In other words, we wouldn't be racing to the bottom because we're all divided.

Please spare me your lecture - what you see to be incapable of understanding is that communism as an ideology has failed... We will ALWAYS be divided as long as there is competition in this country… I feel a kinship with other pilots BUT I am not willing to give up my benefits for their sake… Neither do I expect that from them... If there's a donation drive due to someone's illness or other tragedy - you bet you I will help out... If our (the key word is OUR) junior pilots are threatened with a furlough you bet you I'll volunteer my money and my time to prevent that from happening... However, to arbitrarily give away my seniority (i.e. money and retirement benefits) to pilots from competing airlines would, in my view, be totally insane…

Look at all these people voting "YES" to crappy contracts... and why do they do that? Let's see... what's their alternative? 1st year pay some place else... or a concession. But hey... they'll be all over this board chest-thumping how everyone should vote NO!

I’m sorry but this it total nonsense… We agree to “crappy contracts” because of the 1st year pay??? :eek: I have no idea what you’re talking about…

Let's say two pilots start their career on the same day – today. After earning their ratings one of them becomes a flight instructor for a year or so then starts at a regional airline for 2 years and then ends up at a premier major airline “A” where he/she gets to fly nice day trips, frequently gets to fly international trips and enjoys great pay and benefits…

The second pilot gets hired at several regional airlines before he ends up at a small low-cost cargo outfit “B” where no one wants to work… In fact people are leaving left and right but he/she decides to give it a chance and stays there for the long run…

Ten years later; the first pilot who’s been at the ‘premier’ outfit for almost 7 years is now looking for a job as the airline “A” has now folded.

The second pilot who’s now been at his cargo outfit “B” for almost 5 years is glad to see that his/her benefits and quality of life have greatly improved since the day he took a gamble on working there… In fact, his low-cost operator has turned into a premier airline and now many other pilots want to work at ‘his’ airline…

Since they both flew the same type of airplane based on the idea of a NSL the pilot from airline “A” can now apply to work at airline “B” and in fact upgrade sooner than the pilot who’s been there for 5 years and who believed in his/her airline when no one else did… :( No way should we ever allow that!

Totally myopic and totally incapable of seeing the big picture...

Totally utopian and totally unable to think logically, moreover extremely unfair – fortunately Americans are smarter than that and it'll never happen…



Back to the subject? ...so was his wife right or not? :D

AV8OR -

Lived in NJ before. Looks like we'll just agree to disagree. Not sure an NSL would ever happen anyway because there seems to be enough people opposed, so it's kind of moot. Hope all's well with your flying. Keep the blue side up.

Appreciate it and I agree (to disagree ;))...

Likewise, stay safe and wish you strong tailwinds (except when landing of course :))…

Why do you think this would turn other people's lives upside down? You seriously think it's logical for a pilot who's "paid his/her dues" to have to start over making "apprentice pay" again? Wow... with logic like that, management has an extremely easy task of dividing any pilot group - simply threaten your seniority with 'paycuts or mass furloughs.'

Again... myopic at best. Communism is what you have right now. Can you have some sh*t-hot pilot come through who can fly circles around you, is better qualified than you, is all over the customer service aspect of the job, treats his crews phenomenally... can this pilot advance before you? See... in communism, he cannot. In free market, unless you kept up with him, your lazy, underperforming a$$ would be on the street or not promoted. Here's the question for you - why shouldn't that pilot be promoted ahead of you and/or paid better than you? Now, when you answer that... address every party, including the company and the customer.

Of course you don't. No disrespect meant, but much of free market concept, and idea of professionalism seem to be well above your level of understanding. But let's continue...

So to you... it's professionally acceptable for a pilot A to make the same wage as you did 7 years ago? You can keep your benefits, bidding for schedules, vacation rate accrual, you name it... but you're OK with pilot A to be set back to making crap wage? How is that benefitting anyone except you? I got a newsflash for you... it's not even benefitting you. Quite the contrary, it's undercutting you.... because you get a guy with say, equal or similar experience working for a fraction of your pay. When I flew at my old airline, and saw UAL/USAir furloughees flying the same airplane I was for literally 30% of what I was making simply because of date-of-hire, I felt nauseated. I was senior... but I saw that as a threat to my job.

Utopian? Can I ask if you've ever traveled outside of the United States? Have you traveled on foreign airlines? Have you seen any employment contracts for pilots working for foreign airlines? I dread traveling on US airlines for a number of reasons... one of the biggest reasons is that the focus on customer is long gone. When I travel internationally either on vacation or to get to my plane, I avoid US airlines like the plague. Let's see... nice, smiling, pleasing-on-the-eyes flight attendants with great customer service skills, and enthusiasm for the job or cranky old b*tches who are flying international because they've been at it for 50 years and you as a customer should consider yourself lucky to get a cup of Coke?

Why is that? Look no further - UNIONS.


Absolutely, unions are so 19th century. They served their purpose... now they're just dead weight.

Why do you think this would turn other people's lives upside down? You seriously think it's logical for a pilot who's "paid his/her dues" to have to start over making "apprentice pay" again? Wow... with logic like that, management has an extremely easy task of dividing any pilot group - simply threaten your seniority with 'paycuts or mass furloughs.

Yes, I do… It’s unfortunate but it can happen to all of us… If you don’t like to take any risks then work for the government; you’ll have a much more predictable career and you won’t have to worry about your company going out of business…

Also, it’s your mentality that’s management’s dream, not mine… You might say the best get the jobs when a union is not present yet I’ve seen it with my own eyes where it’s the biggest butt-kissers who get those jobs… So maybe one day someone else who would like to do your job for half the pay and who also happens to be your boss’ friend will take your job away from you… Then you’ll miss having a seniority number…

Again... myopic at best. Communism is what you have right now. Can you have some sh*t-hot pilot come through who can fly circles around you, is better qualified than you, is all over the customer service aspect of the job, treats his crews phenomenally... can this pilot advance before you? See... in communism, he cannot. In free market, unless you kept up with him, your lazy, underperforming a$$ would be on the street or not promoted. Here's the question for you - why shouldn't that pilot be promoted ahead of you and/or paid better than you? Now, when you answer that... address every party, including the company and the customer. Of course you don't.

No, communism is what YOU want; you want affirmative action for less fortunate pilots and use the ‘free market’ concept as an excuse… YOU are the one who wants to delay other pilots' advancements just because you (or someone you know) had bad luck in your previous job… It's horrible BUT that’s a “share the wealth” mentality so please stop using free market economy as an excuse…

You keep repeating that the best and the brightest get promoted first at companies without the unions – well, maybe that happens too but very often the upgrade and promotion is based on a “buddy-buddy” system and you fail to recognize that…

To follow up on your question how exactly will you measure a pilot’s performance at an airline with lets say 12,000 pilots? Are you going to take those who haven’t called in sick and upgrade them sooner than those who called in sick a time or two? Or will you speed up upgrades for those who always answer the calls from crew scheduling? Even on their days off? Or will you come up with some other arbitrary way of measuring this “performance” goal?

By the way, you never said anything about the example I brought up in my previous post? Do you honestly think a person who took a chance on an airline no one wanted to work for initially should be bypassed by someone who enjoyed higher pay and benefits at another carrier but now that his/her airline is gone wants to ‘reconsider’ the “crappy” airline after all? Of course, it’s based on the “performance,” right? Yeah, that’s right, that’s what butt kissing is called nowadays…

No disrespect meant, but much of free market concept, and idea of professionalism seem to be well above your level of understanding.

Above my level of understanding? Oh well, maybe so but fortunately we all have “know-it-alls” such as you who’re willing to educate the less fortunate masses…

You seem to believe that anyone who disagrees with your point of view is uneducated and has no clue on this subject… Well, maybe you’re right, I don’t know, but you’re not helping by repeating “no disrespect” followed by yet another personal attack…

I find it interesting that when you try to make a point I am simply not educated enough and when I disagree with your logic or lack of it, then well, I’m being myopic – how convenient for you…

But let's continue... So to you... it's professionally acceptable for a pilot A to make the same wage as you did 7 years ago? You can keep your benefits, bidding for schedules, vacation rate accrual, you name it... but you're OK with pilot A to be set back to making crap wage?

If he/she comes to a “new” airline yes, I think that’s ok… Now, many airlines, including mine have horrendously low first year pay rates and that’s something we should work on. However, no one ever likes to hear “at my previous airline I used to do things this way” – why should we then be hearing “at my previous airline I used to make this and that much” – what’s the point? That’s history, let’s move on…

How is that benefitting anyone except you? I got a newsflash for you... it's not even benefitting you. Quite the contrary, it's undercutting you.... because you get a guy with say, equal or similar experience working for a fraction of your pay. When I flew at my old airline, and saw UAL/USAir furloughees flying the same airplane I was for literally 30% of what I was making simply because of date-of-hire, I felt nauseated. I was senior... but I saw that as a threat to my job.


I wouldn’t say it’s benefiting me or anyone else… Should we improve the initial pay rates – absolutely! Should new hires use a different pay scale just because of where they used to work before – no, I don’t thinks that’s right…

Utopian? Can I ask if you've ever traveled outside of the United States? Have you traveled on foreign airlines? Have you seen any employment contracts for pilots working for foreign airlines?

Sure you can, in fact you just did…;) Born and raised in Europe, lived in 3 European countries before the US… I fly international trips quite often and have flown commercially on numerous international airlines… Singapore Airlines being my top choice… As far as foreign airlines, not sure why it matters but one of my friends is laid off from JAL; I know several pilots flying for Cathay, Emirates, ANA and of course numerous European carriers…

I dread traveling on US airlines for a number of reasons... one of the biggest reasons is that the focus on customer is long gone. When I travel internationally either on vacation or to get to my plane, I avoid US airlines like the plague. Let's see... nice, smiling, pleasing-on-the-eyes flight attendants with great customer service skills, and enthusiasm for the job or cranky old b*tches who are flying international because they've been at it for 50 years and you as a customer should consider yourself lucky to get a cup of Coke? Why is that? Look no further - UNIONS.

I agree with everything you’ve said here except I put the blame mainly on the political correctness in our country… The ACLU mentality is killing the customer service, not the unions… (although I do agree that sometimes the unions defend some of our members who probably do not deserve do be defended)

Absolutely, unions are so 19th century. They served their purpose... now they're just dead weight.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree… I think you’re in favor of what the Russians call the “Wild West Capitalism” whereas I’m in favor of a capitalistic system where the needs of the employer and the employees are equally important… Ideally you want a balance between the two…

I feel that our views are so opposite that maybe we should simply agree to disagree?

I’ll keep enjoying my “seniority” driven career while you will enjoy your “performance” driven profession and hopefully we both can stay happy?

You're right Av8or... we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Cheers!

Fair enough, cheers to you too! :)