I have seen very compelling arguments, backed up by simple mathematics and very sound reasoning, from people who are far more informed than the both of us, who support unionization. I think you are operating more in the realm of opinion, rather than accepted theory, than you believe.

Uh, actually I remember my history quite well, thank you very much. Do you remember New York Air, Eastern, Texas International, and the old Continental? ;)

In case you misread me, I want to clarify that I was not defending Lorenzo. In fact, I think what he did was criminal. But, the fact that pilots are more unwilling to leave this profession for another actually helps the likes of people like Lorenzo. All I'm saying is that he probably knew that and used it to his advantage.

Because of Sicilian business "consultants" who take an interest in workers rights? :D

Not necessarily. I know several nurses who do much better in terms of pay, benefits, and time off than a lot of friends who are regional captains - and part of the analysis is the fact that they complain less than my captain friends. Anyways, hospitals are out to make a profit as well, and nurses are typically in high demand and non-union. Typically, because there are a few exceptions.

Of course they are, that is their job. And the job of our unions is to try to minimize or prevent those concessions. You can keep the higher wages, but when your competitor is paying 50% less because that is what the labor force accepts, it won't be long before your company is out of business - all other things being equal.

This is just my opinion, but I don't believe any of the above is directly related to whether one is union or not. For example, bogus sick calls are more of an integrity issue than anything else.

I don't think anyone is accusing you of being a communist or a socialist, at least I am not. Those are more political than labor oriented anyways.

However, may I humbly suggest that you may be allowing yourself to be a victim rather than capitalism forcing you to be one? I'll give you an example.

Several years ago, prior to hiring on at a major, I accepted a job at a non-union carrier rather than going to a unionized regional carrier because of supply and demand. The most a unionized regional could offer me at the time was $14,000.00 per year with an upgrade in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 years.

The job I accepted paid more than double that as an f/o and allowed me to upgrade in the jet in less than a year. The schedule was not anything to brag about and neither were the benefits, but I knew that when I signed up for the job and accepted it as it was. I also knew that the positives (pay and upgrade) outweighed the negatives (schedule and days off). I was afforded the opportunity to choose and ultimately accept that job thanks to supply and demand. Supply and demand is a pendulum - sometimes we're the windshield and sometimes we're the bug.

Oh quit being a popinjay. :D

Actually, you lose the argument by default, regardless of opinion.


Your wife has seniority.

macflyer made a much better argument for my school of thought toward unionization. I agree 100% with what he explained. That being said, I have been torn with the fact that our profession is highly unionized and have over the years tried to find for myself reasons why it may be necessary. Don't get me wrong; I do believe that our unions have done, or atleast tried at times to do, very great things to protect our profession.

As far as my response to the OP, I was simply trying to possibly explain to him the reason that his wife is not in support of unionization.

Oh believe me, I remember all too well unfortunately as a few members of my family were greatly affected by both Texas International and the Old Continental.

For some is not a matter of willingness, but rather the byproduct of circumstance, if you're making 6 figures as was the case of many in those days, it was extremely hard to just walk. A strike is one thing, but leave the profession altogether is another, and for some is not entirely an option, so I really don't see it. I could see leaving a certain outfit for another if you have the means to take the cut, but certainly not leave the industry. Quite frankly this was not part of Lorenzo's strategy, he was more of an executioner, but I see you remember your history now. ;)

Easy there boss, you might wake up in the trunk of a car :D

That's why I said the transportation industry, I have no expertise to speak of when it comes to other industries, but I will say that the fact that demand is high and supply is low certainly plays a huge roll on what they can get. Not the same with us, not yet!!!


I agree, illustrating my point. If it was up to management we would be paying them to work, proving that unions are a necessary evil. It's a matter of getting everyone on the same page, which management has successfully been able to deter by turning us against one another. With the exception of gojets, I believe we should all be trying to fight the same fight regardless of which union we belong to, which is why it is so critical that everyone negotiates the best rates and work rules possible as their contracts come up...we set the stage for each other, and in doing so, we begin to eliminate the companies that try to do this for "50% less" (a bit of an exaggeration there but I do get the point).

In essence I believe we're trying to address the same issues from different angles, but I do appreciate your point of view.

Bond

I just meant that fair and equitable compensation leads to those things, not necessarily unionism. Fair and equitable compensation can be given, or taken by force (by union)......or we can abolish unionism and wait for supply and demand to work it's magic, while our careers crumble before our eyes, and they start importing Chinese and Indian pilots to do our jobs for us. Dramatic, yes, but it's been done in other industries.

Did you read what I wrote earlier? This thread had not addressed the original posters thoughts one bit! This discussion is more than just about union vs. non union. I think the original poster is asking about crossing the line! Am I the only one who read the second part of his question that way?

Simmer there chap :p. I think the responses so far have addressed the crux of what he was getting at, which was the value of unionism. It's my impression that the "crossing the line" bit was just a side thought. Here's my answer, though: that person would be a scab, and deserves to be ostracized and black listed, without remorse, for stabbing his or her fellow pilots in the back.

No worries Chap. But I disagree, to some extent. Just so we are clear, I'll repost the original portion of the question so we can recall the subject:


I agree that crossing the line would be an abomination to his peers and a cause this man to suffer harsh career consequences in the long term, but does he understand what he is asking? Why haven’t we heard back from him? He did after all, start this thread.