Yep, glass houses and all.

I wasn't all out trying to flame the guy, just trying to give it some perspective.

 

If ALPA helps the suits change the rules, and if the new rules mean they can try to fire me, at least I have ALPA to protect my job.

Wait a minute...

 

No I don't have any insight on that, just saying I bet things could have been handled differently with a successful out come. But, since 50 voters were not killed no one in congress cares. These were the top of the list pilots in regards to experience, the best of the best and look at no one making a fuss about it.

Day in and day out emergencies are handled by regional airline pilots with no harm to anyone, often never heard of. Yet one guy blows it and we are all inexperience, under educated and under qualified. We should change the manner in which they earn a living. I am telling you this is not going to be for the better. Enjoy your days off while you still have them.

All of you keep referring to our crap contract. Which for one this was the first contract CHQ pilots had ever signed. for another, has thus far saved us from a Freedom, GoJet style inner whipping. We as FO's don't need to be climbing over one another for equipment, that suits me just fine. And no $37 an hour isn't great but this wasn't IBT representation that led us to that. Just like ALPA didn't lead mesa to crap wages on their last bout.

The IBT has taken steps to get rid of the junk representation we've had and things are looking much better. At least Hoffa hasn't sat down in congress and so much as called us un-worthy of the job.

Yeah, I probably should. But were not talking about my union throwing me under the public bus in support of higher dues paying groups.

 

Boomer gets it!

 

Well maybe you should have chose your words more carefully before you determined through your own expert crash investigation analysis on what happened to those guys, ya think?

Wont argue that point, I got it the first time. See above for clarification.

Won't argue that either. And I do enjoy my days off, thank you very much.

Are you sure its the first contract there?

When you settle on a single pay rate for ALL fleet sizes, you wouldn't expect ANY FO movement I guess. What a victory that was for the company, keep training cost down AND don't pay them very much. I'm curious, what were you doing at the time that last contract was negotiated? Where you even in the airlines paying dues to organized labor? I was at my former ALPA carrier and following that process at CHQ closely. You don't have to tell me what the merits of it were. But just with the nature of negotiating ANY CBA, the down sides can have negative effects for OTHER groups trying to negotiate in the future.

I'm sorry, you can't defend that FO pay rate. You can try, but it won't get you anywhere.

Who was representing CHQ when the $37/hr was negotiated?

You keep missing the point I made earlier. ALPA (or anybody else) is only as good as your local MEC. Feel like a broken record saying that. I believe you were former MESA, or one of their 1900 operating subsidiaries? If I'm wrong, sorry. If so, I'll tell you the same thing I told somebody else. Don't let the fact that you made the choice to work for a crap with a carrier with a substandard MEC fully distort your view of ALPA.

Let's hope so.

If the majority of airlines were IBT instead of ALPA, do you think we'd be in a unionized workers paradise right now?

 

Good points. However, if the objective is to improve rest rules, training, work rules, duty rules and other criteria; then using the majors as the example of how things should be everywhere is a valid and effective means to make his point. It may ruffle a few feathers at "regionals." but it sends the message clearly, in short soundbytes the press, and politicians, can absorb.

 

Regardless of what jet you fly, who you fly for, who you want to see as the face of ALPA there are some main points that are not being made. As a disclaimer I am pro-ALPA but anyone at 9E can tell ya that some ripples are being made within our own group over leadership (or lack thereof).

1. ALPA is it's membership and is largely a volunteer driven group. Yes, your 1.95% dues go to keep the MEC running, national running, and supply the Major Contingency Fund- but you get many many benefits.
-Anybody used ALPA aeromedical? I have- without it I would have lost my medical for 6 months.
-Anybody used the legal dept?
-Anybody used the Schwab Financial planning benefits for retirement and investments?
-Anybody been protected during the "carpet dance"

2. The group is only as good as the local group and MEC. Not only do you need to elect the true leaders of the group who have "titanium balls" to take on mgmt, but you need to be sure that the MEC/LEC is given the volunteer based committees to get a job done.
-Do you have an active Retirement and Insurance committee working to make sure you have all your paid for benefits, the best rates, best care, best coverage, best 401K provider and plan details while trimming out BS fees?
-Do you have a hotel committee actively working with the company to find the best hotel (many times even working to get a different hotel that costs more)?
-Does your scheduling committee work to get horrible pairings changed, improve QOL, and keep the company from doing whatever they want to pilots and their schedules?
-Does your negotiating committee have the same goals as YOU and your elected reps?
-Do you let your reps know what is going on, what needs to get fixed, what yourself and others are looking to improve?
-Does your Pilot-2-Pilot group keep you up to date with all the info going on at your company (and even the truth going on at others)?
-Does your safety and training committees work to improve training programs, and work with ASAP, LOSA, FOQA to keep you safe and improve your skills?
-Does your professional standards committee get feedback on the "renegades" and work to fix the problems?
-Does your communication committee keep you in the loop with official messages?
-Does your ALPA PAC committee pass on the political needs expressed by your group and not just a name and check?
-Does your jumpseat committee keep your commute alive?
-Does the grievance committee get your "fly now grieve later" events compensated and stopped against for the future?
-Does your security committee work to keep procedures up to date with the latest threats?
-Does your membership committee make sure everyone stays in good standing and eligible to vote when the time comes?



YOU are ALPA, the union is YOURS. I will publicly say (call this public) that I do not believe Prater has the regionals in his mind as a focus. His support is the majors from what I am seeing and reading. His desire for regionals to just sign a contract and get their hands out of the MCF for 5 years is undeniable. ALPA is what you make it, if you don't like something- work to change it. Your fellow pilots will either explain to you WHY it's done a certain way or step up out of the shadows in support for new change.

If you are complaining and haven't tried to volunteer- pick your area of anger and get to work. Volunteers are always welcome and some fresh blood can really get things accomplished.

 

Even though I am a member of a different union All of the above is true of any union, they live or die on the memberships interest and activity.

 

Captain Prater certainly did not throw regional airline pilots under the bus in his testimony. He has reminded Congress and the media more than once that every 121 pilot flies through the same weather to the same airports under the same regulations. The problem is that while major airlines go above and beyond the bare minimum set forth by the FAA, in an effort to cut costs and become the cheapest option for a codeshare partner, SOME regional airlines have allowed safety to degrade.

If the general public perceives regional airlines in a negative manner it also puts pressure on their respective codeshares.

I can put my ego aside and accept the fact that I am not as experienced as a mainline pilot. I don't think I'm unsafe to fly with or incapable by any means, but more experience generally makes for a better pilot. And the majority of aeronautical experience in the 121 world lies at mainline carriers, not their regional lift.

 

An Observation From The Outside

Before I say what I have to say, bear in mind that my perspective is from the outside looking in with regards to the passenger airline side. I fly freight and am part of an in-house independent union, and thus my observations are just that - observations. With that being said, here is my $0.02.

"We need to take back the industry to what it once was."
I see this a lot on the message board. The only way to take the industry back to what it once was is to turn it back into what it used to be. Mainline carriers flying the bulk of the routes with regionals (commuters) serving to feed mainline passengers to and from cities too small for large aircraft.

"We need higher wages and better work rules at the regionals."
Not going to happen for the simple fact that you cannot pound a square peg into a round hole. The regionals are not designed nor are they able to produce revenue streams large enough to pay crews large salaries comparable to what we have seen in years past.

With rare exception, the "commuters" were not designed to be long-term career destinations for most pilots. Get in, get the experience, and move on was the mantra. Everybody knew it going in and played the game hoping for a spot at a major one day. It was nothing more than paying dues.

The commuters morphed into regionals with the advent of the regional jet. Blame who you wish, but the fact is that regional jets allowed smaller, commuter airlines to grow and to capture larger route structures that used to be flown by the smallest mainline types of aircraft. In some cases, two or more regional jets are flying routes that used to be served by one mainline jet.

A lot of people reflect on the glory days of the airline industry from years past. While those were good days, let us not forget how the industry was structured. Most tickets purchased on a mainline carrier saw the passenger boarding a 727 or DC-9 operated by that mainline carrier. The only exception to the rule is if you wanted to fly from a major hub to an outlying small town, then you would probably have flown on a Beech 99 or Metroliner. A lot of those same routes back then that were flown by large airliners (727's, 737's, DC-9's) are now flown by smaller, regional jets.

"We need a national seniority list."
While the intentions are admirable, a national seniority list is very unrealistic and would create more problems than it would solve. First, bigger is not always better. One union representing tens of thousands of pilots? Too many interests among the various groups and one large organization to represent all of them. It would never work.

And where is the proof that this would increase wages and QOL issues? If anything, it would cause managers to work harder to find ways of doing more with less.

"But if you lose your job, you have to start over at the bottom."
Welcome to the real world that we call life. I know it isn't fair, but where is it written that it has to be fair? This is part of the game and we all know and accept that fact going into it. Instead of demanding someone "owe you" a seniority number at another carrier, work instead to have a plan B in case you find yourself in that situation.

"We need to go back to regulating the industry."
When is the last time more government solved a problem? Re-regulating the industry will not equate to more pay, more jobs and better work rules. It will equate to the federal government having the final say as to who flies where, how often, with which type of aircraft, and for how much.

I recently read an article in which the author was looking for an airline job during the 1960's, the era prior to deregulation. One major carrier was hiring, but was also furloughing. It was not uncommon to get hired by a major and then furloughed during the slower times of the year for several years. In other words, you could consider yourself a seasonal employee for several years until your seniority increased.

And if you think pay, especially first year pay was better prior to deregulation, think again. There is more than one story out there of pilots who were hired and had to live on borrowed money to make it through the first one or two years of low pay. And then most were furloughed for a time after that.

"Wages are too low."
For every one person I see complaining about the pay, I can easily find five who say they "love to fly because it beats working in cubicle." And most of the time it does beat working in a cubicle, but if people are willing to enter a hobby instead of a career then wages are going to remain where they are.