Rickair - care to reply to my previous post? (#11) Just curious how you came to your conclusions? :confused:

So you suggest we NOT integrate YX pilots and let them all hit the streets and take a 100% paycut? Is that supportive?

The RAH pilot group can only do so much. We can:

1. Bring Midwest pilots onto our list
2. Negotiate pay rates that approximate those Midwest enjoyed in the past.

Step one is happening now. Step two is happening now. Step one will be completed sooner than step two.

Once on the RAH seniority list, Midwest pilots will have the opportunity to bid over to the Frontier Airbus as allowed by the F9/RAH integration (to be determined). Midwest pilots will have a chance to restore their pay and careers. Did TWA pilots have that? Are AA pilots "virtual scabs"?

Just remember, every fence and advantage you wish upon the F9 pilots will be an obstacle for YX pilots who are trying to restore their pay. The new 190 will have a higher payrate than currently included in the RAH contract, but it will not be the old 717 rate this time around. I hope and will vote otherwise, but the most likely outcome is captain pay in the $110-$120 range. The bigger focus will be on FO pay. YX pilots will not recover their pay for the next 5 or so years UNLESS they have access to the Airbus. Still want fences?

Step two will never happen. The whole reason this deal happened was BECAUSE of cheap labor provided by RAH. Why would they bring back the old pay rates back, so they can be unprofitable again? Come on, seriously.

I'm brought to tears that you are willing to do what the law is forcing you to do. In fact you aren't doing it. Your embarassment to the profession of a union has given the middle finger to the YX MEC. It's been almost a year and not one sign of support from your group. Things like this don't happen by accident. It's a sign of the morality of the group. The ultimate sign of your groups integrity is what happened to your union leadership and said union is still your representative. Christ the AirTran pilots had their old union bring them a crappy TA and they threw them out.

This is getting a little ridiculous... The "virtual scabs" comment is WAY out of line... Don't get me wrong, I'm all for calling a d-bag a d-bag... (cough... gojets)... But not one of the RAH pilots got hired there thinking "Hey, let's go buy and gut some major carriers and fly their airplanes for half the pay!!!" Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe they took a vote amongst the pilots to find out if they WANTED to buy YX/F9...

Give the guys a freakin' break... Ignore the idiots who want everybody stapled below them... (Every airline has that few percentage points of idiots/dbags...) How about we wait 'till the RAH pilots get to VOTE on something and make a CHOICE before we condemn them for the actions of their management??

The situation sucks, for all of us. But out of all the people who are at fault, the pilots aren't...

I agree but is it too much to ask for a single letter to the YX MEC in a years time in support. How about more than 1-2 pilots walking picket lines with the YX pilots. There were more Compass pilots supporting us than Republic. How about a letter to your SLT about your concerns with these moves. The truth is the teamsters are in support of the cult leaders moves. Why would I believe this. There isn't any evidence to disprove it.

I hear "only rumor" your MEC is not talking this graciously about the Midwest pilots. I would love to think the Republic membership can be this professional.

Actions speak louder than words.

Let's see the Republic MEC take one action supporting the Midwest pilots. Haven't seen one yet and its been almost a years.



ps... Do you guy even have a pilot MEC president after the events of the last year?

ps... Do you guy even have a pilot MEC president after the events of the last year?[/QUOTE]

To be perfectly honest, I don't know exactly what an MEC is. Titles run a little different at Teamsters. Our Local 747 President (the one who got run out of town) never was a pilot. Right now we have trustee positions (a temporary leadership position), at least one of which is occupied by a career pilot (retired).

We have an EXCO (executive counsel), which is comprised strictly of pilots.

One of our major problems is that our EXCO and negotiating committe is comprised strictly of line pilots who recieve flight loss pay. Our former Local president plundered the flight loss pay fund, and left us seriously in debt. It is difficult to come up with the money to send our guys to three seniority integrations, section 6 negotiations, court hearings regarding our former president, and take care of daily union business. We are strapped for resources. Sorry that you guys are losing out. Welcome to our world of the past 10 years.

To be perfectly honest, I don't know exactly what an MEC is. Titles run a little different at Teamsters. Our Local 747 President (the one who got run out of town) never was a pilot. Right now we have trustee positions (a temporary leadership position), at least one of which is occupied by a career pilot (retired).

We have an EXCO (executive counsel), which is comprised strictly of pilots.

One of our major problems is that our EXCO and negotiating committe is comprised strictly of line pilots who recieve flight loss pay. Our former Local president plundered the flight loss pay fund, and left us seriously in debt. It is difficult to come up with the money to send our guys to three seniority integrations, section 6 negotiations, court hearings regarding our former president, and take care of daily union business. We are strapped for resources. Sorry that you guys are losing out. Welcome to our world of the past 10 years.[/quote]

Why isn't Teamsters national or what ever it is above the Local supporting you? Even ALPA is providing financial support for the YX pilots and they are getting less and less from us as far as dues go. (soon to be none)
If this is what we have to look forward to, maybe it's time for a new union.

Do you think?

The MEC (master executive counsel) or your EXCO. I heard about your EXCO going to court for stealing funds, but didn't know about the financial problems.

Pilots should be dealing with pilots and hammer out a fair deal. If the new Republic is going to be worth working at Republic, Midwest and Frontier pilots have to...

1. Merge everyone on one seniority list
2. Review scope language for any loop holes
3. Integrate in a fair way so the working enviroment will be good.
NO ONE SHOULD BE LOOKING TO GAIN ANYTHING IN THE FIRST YEAR
4. Improve the pay for the E190 and for FOs (the top FO pay is criminal)
5. Improve retirement funding
6. Keep the unions and attorneys out of it

Virtual scabs?!? Give me a freakin break. So YOU decide where the "virtual picket line" is formed?

Not sure what the pilot group at Republic is doing wrong? Showing up for work? So you don't agree with what has happened to Midwest and Frontier. Guess your choice is now to insult the pilot group. Great work. Keep mud slinging. That always helps the other side of a topic see your side of it. Guess you took that Dale Carnegie class huh.

[/Quote]Why isn't Teamsters national or what ever it is above the Local supporting you? Even ALPA is providing financial support for the YX pilots and they are getting less and less from us as far as dues go. (soon to be none)
If this is what we have to look forward to, maybe it's time for a new union.[/QUOTE]

The ousting of our former Local President was the first indication that Teamsters Int'l actual does support us. Currently, there are legal issues being sorted out, but one of the big things currently being tackled by our trustees is exactly what you mentioned...getting Teamsters Int'l to help us out of our situation. I don't know where that issue stands at the moment, but our trustees were talking about a dues increase to offset the losses and to finance all the flight loss pay for our exceptionally busy EXCO and negotiating committee. Those dues increases have not happened yet, so I am hopeful that funds from Int'l are actually on their way soon.

As for a new union...

There was much talk and grassroots effort going into a de-certification of Teamsters here at RAH. Other member airlines of Local 747 had done so recently, and the talk of losing our 2100-strong pilot group in addition to the other lost airlines is exactly what prompted the emergency trusteeship of the Local. The general mindset at RAH now is to give the new leadership a chance, and see if they produce results. So far, we have seen a lot of progress. If Teamsters continues to fail us, though, there is no lack of support for a new union. Add in ALPA YX'ers, and FAPA F9'ers, and you will see a huge backing for new representation if integration AND section 6 do not go well. I know everyone is crying for us to grow a pair... well right now we are. I know you can't see much of any change from the outside looking in, but things are happening internally. We have a lot of guys who were hired in the last two years who come from other 121 carriers, and are done taking crap from management AND from our representatives. If ever there was a time to support us, now would be it.

To call the RAH pilots "scabs" or "virtual scabs" is totally idiotic.

Good post. You are correct.

Our EXCO did not go to court for stealing funds, our Local 747 president did (cases are still ongoing). He, in some form or another, robbed (allegedly, for anyone who wants to get all legal on me) the funds that our EXCO is supported by. Our EXCO is comprised of line pilots who still fly regularly.

As for...
...point 1: our scope requires everyone to be merged. Bedford has threatened to sell greater than 50% of his control in F9 to avoid having to integrate, but we highly doubt he will give up control over such a large investment and potential profit source.
...point 2: so far, there has been no successful work-around regarding RAH scope language. As stated above, the only way to avoid integration is for Bedford to not own a controlling interest.
...point 3: I agree that no one should be making a tangible gain in the first year. Our negotiators are level headed guys, and I am sure F9 guys will walk away with some sort of fence protection, and a somewhat reasonable place on the combined seniority list. YX pilots will not likely get a fence, since they won't have aircraft to protect. Perhaps something will be worked out to put those guys into MKE first. As an aside, under the current RAH contract, a senior pilot can NOT displace a junior pilot out of seat/equipment/or base unless the company is shrinking or a base downsizes. So long as YX pilots get MKE right away, they won't be bumped out, no matter where they end up on the seniority list. Same would apply to F9'ers in the event no fence is set up.
...point 4: Of course we want to improve pay. Unfortunately, that will have to wait until a new contract is ratified, until a plane with more than 99 seats installed is added, or until F9 pilots operate under the RAH CBA (Airbus is greater than 99 seats...new payscale). RAH was a low tier regional when the last contract came out. We have a whole different future, and quite possibly a 90% NEW pilot group. The old ways won't continue.
...point 5: No idea where that will go. I really do hope better 401k matching is included in the new CBA. Pensions are obviously not going to be established nowadays.
...point 6: Trying to keep the lawyers out...we got rid of our Local 747 legal counsel when we got rid of our President (same guy, double dipping in Hoffa's cookie jar). As for keeping the unions out, unfortunately EVERYTHING has to be negotiated through them. That's the high price of the low life.

How will the TA that has already been negotiated between RAH and FAPA fit into the new Republic contract? Do you think Bedford will be pushing for you to simply ignore the Frontier acquisition and let him and F9 live in their own world?

Anything less than or equal to AirTran's current DC fund is a failure. I would hope that anything less than a percentage point or two above theirs wouldn't even make it past the NC. Why the defeatist attitude?

there is no TA, this is a myth

Any TA between RAH management and FAPA pilots is strictly between them. Until there is a seniority integration, F9 pilots are entitled to represent themselves and negotiate a CBA as needed, independent from Teamsters and RAH pilots.

F9 pilots will operate under their separate CBA until both the RAH and F9 pilots are integrated AND RAH/Teamsters negotiate a new or revised CBA that has provisions for F9 pilots and their equipment. Likely, F9 pilots will operate under a separate CBA for at least a year.

Bedford has stated he wants to keep F9 pilots separate from RAH pilots. Whether this was lip service to soothe the fears of F9 pilots, or his actual desire remains to be seen. However, RAH scope (which has not been defeated yet) requires the F9 pilots to be integrated since Bedford acquired more than 50% of Frontier. Even if he sold half now, the process has been set in motion. I expect Bedford will continue to keep us separated as long as he can for whipsaw purposes, and will try to throw enticements our way. However, defense of scope in paramount, and we have yet to cede scope at this company. I expect that the pilot groups will be combined eventually, despite the best efforts of management.

I am not trying to be defeatist. The truth is this company WAS a stepping stone, not a career destination. Our current CBA reflects that, especially when it comes to retirement benefits. New contracts are improvements upon the old, and unfortunately, we don't have much to begin with. It will interesting to see what value our NC places on this topic compared to other areas in need of improvement such as overall pay, FO pay, rigs, cancellation pay, etc. My GUESS is that our NC will accept an increase in 401k match and move on.

Does the use of capital letters for the word "WAS" above mean:
(1) It was a stepping stone and now I've moved on ...
or
(2) Now that there are mainline aircraft in the fold Republic is no longer just a stepping stone but can be considered a career destination?

Here is a simple observation, that I hope some people will swallow their pride and realize how they are being used....

Many are saying that Bedford wants to keep the lists seperate so he can whipsaw the Pilot Groups, but wake Up F9. He doesnt need to whipsaw you. Some of your guys have done a good job yourselves, since the day it was announced, with the way you have treated the pilot group at RAH. Now hopefully youll give them a chance and see if both groups can work together, but from some of the garbage i've been seeing posted here lately I'm not sure yet.........

Please F9 prove this wrong, I had once hoped to work for your outfit oneday, and I think their are still plenty of level heads at F9 that can and will work with the RAH group to make it better for all...

Shouldn't this be in the Majors section...




Kidding.... :D

You know most of your list is trying to get accomplished. As opposed to most of the keyboard warriors think on here, these things do no happen overnight and will take a while to get accomplished. Unfortunately the unions and attorneys are a necessary evil when it comes to dealing with integration and hammering out new TA's with the company.

It would be great if every detail in integrating 4 airlines into an existing 3 airline seniority list was sorted out in the time it took me to type this post but in the real world it doesn't happen like that.

I am have not kept up with the unfolding saga and I have no dog in this fight but I do have a question. Have YX ever expressed anything but vitriol toward the RAH group? I seriously do not know. Has RAH been considered then enemy from the start of this? This is a serious question. I would really like to know.

We seem to be the scapegoat of everything bad that is happening to the industry right now. I had a GoJet guy thank me for lowering the bar. :rolleyes: We have been considered the enemy and its interesting how some think as if we get together and make these decisions ourselves. I also hear alot about our contract as if most of us really had anything to do with it. We went from a company similar in size to Colgan to where we are right now in just a matter of a few years. That contract was also one of the first non-concessionary contracts to be signed in after 9/11. Either way people need to realize it may not seem like anything is happening from the outside looking in but I assure you that things are being worked on to fix the deficiencys. Do I honestly believe we will get JetBlue rates? Probably not... But they will be a huge improvement to where they are right now and it won't be anything to be ashamed of.

I haven't spoken to or crossed paths with any of the YX pilots in person but from what I have heard they have been nothing but friendly, however I haven't seen that on the message boards but I hope the "vocal minority" may come into play. Makes it kinda tough to want to lend a hand and "take one for the older guys" regarding my QOL and seniority when everytime someone posts something on here it is nothing but insults and venom. But either way life goes on and we can't do anything but try to make it better.

option 2. It may not be a choice career destination, but for those of us who ended up on the RAH list, this may be the final stop before the insane asylum.

Another myth is that if Bedford sells 51% of Frontier that the list don't have to be merged.

It was so good, I had to post it for the 35...

I think the original reason BB wanted to keep the lists separate was because of training costs due to SLI. BTW, most F9 pilots are FOR an SLI. We don't want a whipsaw any more than the RAH pilots. Of course it is an integration so there will probably be ugly parts, but I am confident an agreement can be reached.

Yep, he just got off the phone with me. He's buying United, once they file bankruptcy.

In answer to the Delta question earlier in the thread. Delta is waiting to see how RAH integrates the different operations. If they do it in a manner that will allow Delta to terminate the contracts they will do that. If not they will honor the contracts however they will not renew any contracts with a competitor. RAH will have a window of time to achieve critical mass before there contracts start to expire. Its highly unlikely that any major airline will renew future contracts with them. They have a cushion for a couple of years and then there revenue stream from feeder contracts starts to dry up. Time will tell if they can pull it off.

The picket lines (2) were in front of the MKE airport while Republic was starting E170 operations. Midwest pilots were in contract negotiations for E190 pay scales and the company started with your 51-76 seat rate. We would not accept that rate just like Republic pilots will not accept that rate in your new contract. Midwest pilots could not legally strike... the company owners TPG (now a partner at Republic) could of locked us out legally.

Midwest had picket lines up.

I use the word "virtual scabs" because your union undermined our contract talks and showed no support for the Midwest pilots. In fact you started to brag "it's our flying now" and took steps to protect the flying.

These actions are not in the tradition of the TEAMSTERS

Tell me one thing the Republic pilots did to support the Midwest pilots? Did your local even write our local with a letter of support? Why do you think the profession considers your local a cancer?





ps. I worked construction during college
I was a Teamsters member
I hold a inactive membership

Regionals have failed in their branded flying long before BUF.

You didn't even try to support the Midwest pilots during the outsourcing of flying to Republic. This was not the normal "connect" flying contract.

Then after merging the Midwest company with Republic you come up with this integration plan......



Date: August 15, 2009
To: All Republic Airways Holdings, Inc. Pilots
From: RAH Seniority Integration Committee
Re: Upcoming Merger Integration Process

.................................................. ................................................


The only pilot groups not to have pilots on furlough is Mokulele and Lynx. Midwest will have another 41 pilots on furlough September 1st, with all of their pilots on the street by December 15th. Furloughed pilots from Midwest and Frontier cannot bid for an open slot until they are on the RAH Seniority List. However, for integration purposes, pilots who were active at the time of acquisition will be considered active for the Master Seniority List. It is the resolve of all Integration Committees to get this completed as quickly as possible so we can begin to get all of our furloughees back on property.
.................................................. .................................................


Republic pilots plan to put the outsourced pilots from Midwest on the bottom of the combine seniority list. You were used to undermine our contract talks...
- Republic pilots couldn't find a way to support us during our picketing
- Now you can't support the 200 pilots that were furloughed and have been unemployed while you flying.

Integrate All the Midwest pilots

If it's a not a strike, which is what people refer to when they say picket line, then there was no line to cross. An informational picket doesn't count.

The union has stated that all furloughs from all certificates including Midwest and Frontier will be recalled by the end of integration. This takes into account the aircraft on order and the projected loss of RJ's. They have mentioned nothing about hiring; I guess that they will have to at some point.

Just let it go. You can't win and you can't cure stupid. Most of these keyboard warriors are the less educated and involved; they simply regurgitate whatever slander they hear from collegues of similar erudition. ToiletDuck, you are not a scab and you haven't done anybody wrong. I see that you are on the union website, help me get everyone signed up so we can make a real difference. Ignore these BS comments and focus on the important stuff.

Sounds like a good slogan for RAH's contract negotiations...