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121 Hiring at all with 12 Hour Duty Day?
I know there are a ton of pilots on Furlough; including myself. But I am just wondering if any and I mean any 121 airline will be hiring in the end of 09 or on into 2010. I have heard with the 12 hour rule airlines will need more pilots but since there are so many on furlough it will just equal out. I haven't flown in 3 months so I guess you could say I'm out of the loop. I do miss my job a ton by the way!
I know there are guys and gals from all the regionals on here and I just would like some input. No bashing other airlines or yours we are regional airline pilots, we are underpaid and under appreciated; we all know! Just input what you think about the 12 hour duty rule and if your airline has any potential to hire or call back furloughees. I'm really just curious. Cheers! and "Keep on Truckin" for all the guys and gals furloughed! |
FWIW, my airline has openly said if the duty time regs change (and we operate under 34/7 1200 yr) that they would recall everyone and mabye even hire a crew or two...but only time will tell...I sure would like to get back to work.
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Nice Avatar I think thats what it's called hah! Anyways we gotta tell Prater and gang to get on the horse and get that 12 hour rule passed!
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Not sure the twelve hour rule will increase line coverage at some airlines, I think some would just cut back frequency. Our situation though because of operating under an obscure 135 reg that covers 121 ops, allowing our duty times to be more might. If we get forced back to 30/7 and 1000 obviously well need more staffing. But most carriers ( due to flying 30+ seats) are already there. Now if no cut in flights and we get pulled to 12 hours duty, we might see some movement....so heres hoping:D
While we are addressing fatigue issues, I am all for anything that gets us all back to work too YOU should see it out of the water...theres 27 wheels in them there floats...lmao:D, the L/D charts suck though... |
THE ONLY GOOD THING these new regs will do is brig back furloughed guys/gals. Everything else will continue in a downward spiral. Our days off will go down, as will our productivity.
I say as much flying as you can fit in a 13 or 14hr duty day, or make a 10hr duty day if your show is prior to 630am etc.. This will be another thing that will further degrade this profession......... Also, I am opening up a Key-Lime pie stand on the boardwalk here in NJ next summer, free keylime Pie with your airline ID :) |
Originally Posted by JoeyMeatballs
(Post 675765)
Also, I am opening up a Key-Lime pie stand on the boardwalk here in NJ next summer, free keylime Pie with your airline ID :) |
Originally Posted by JoeyMeatballs
(Post 675765)
Also, I am opening up a Key-Lime pie stand on the boardwalk here in NJ next summer, free keylime Pie with your airline ID :) |
Originally Posted by JoeyMeatballs
(Post 675765)
THE ONLY GOOD THING these new regs will do is brig back furloughed guys/gals. Everything else will continue in a downward spiral. Our days off will go down, as will our productivity.
I say as much flying as you can fit in a 13 or 14hr duty day, or make a 10hr duty day if your show is prior to 630am etc.. This will be another thing that will further degrade this profession......... Also, I am opening up a Key-Lime pie stand on the boardwalk here in NJ next summer, free keylime Pie with your airline ID :) Can you name any other profession where you get more days off (not including vacation) the longer you've been at the company? Personally no pilot should get anymore days off than other each month. The senior pilots should get paid more and get to choose the trips they want. I'll agree having 18 days off is very nice but I don't think its fair. Management doesn't get 18 days off a month do they? :p |
Originally Posted by The Farang
(Post 675909)
I don't think I can get much worse than 10 days off...The airline industry is really messed up.
Can you name any other profession where you get more days off (not including vacation) the longer you've been at the company? Personally no pilot should get anymore days off than other each month. The senior pilots should get paid more and get to choose the trips they want. I'll agree having 18 days off is very nice but I don't think its fair. Management doesn't get 18 days off a month do they? :p That is the senority system, like it or not, for good and bad. Believe me, I have been been at the bottom a lot, in the middle a lot, and the top a short time. The 18 day off schedule makes up for missing the holidays and the years of having 10 days off. Management guys go home every night, have normal sleep and are home during the holidays. That is one of the reasons they are management guys. The system isn't perfect, but it would not be fun with equal days off. Sorry man. |
Originally Posted by The Farang
(Post 675909)
I don't think I can get much worse than 10 days off...The airline industry is really messed up.
Can you name any other profession where you get more days off (not including vacation) the longer you've been at the company? Personally no pilot should get anymore days off than other each month. The senior pilots should get paid more and get to choose the trips they want. I'll agree having 18 days off is very nice but I don't think its fair. Management doesn't get 18 days off a month do they? :p Life is not fair dude. Seniority rules in aviation. |
Originally Posted by The Farang
(Post 675909)
Management doesn't get 18 days off a month do they? :p
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Going back to the original thread, I think that there might be a slight chance that they'll need more pilots, but the truth is that they'll have people flying more days a month.
Anyhow, I wouldn't hold my breath on these new regs. briging jobs back. I'm honestly looking forward for the economy to pick up again. Folks, this is still AMERICA ! when the recesion is over, a boom will follow. The only thing the USA needs to watch, is the energy prices (OIL$$$), that's the only thing that could hold back the next economy boom. International travel will pick up again big time, this means majors will increase capacity again and the cycle restarts. Now, I think we'll see something interesting, like accelerated growth met by massive ex-military 'nam era guys retirements. I get the feeling that we are only 4-5 years away from all this. |
Originally Posted by OKLATEX
(Post 675914)
I am not sure what you are saying here....I will keep the system the way it is thanks!
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Heard from a guy at Mesaba that someone in training told him Mesaba would have to hire when the new rule went through. Personally I think that might be taking it a bit far, especially with the loss of 13 more Saabs. I do think it will mean less furloughs then there would have been otherwise.
I also heard from a fed that there is a good chance that highspeeds will no longer be able to be integrated with regular lines. For the airlines who are close to proper staffing currently, I think they might see some hiring. |
The whole days off thing is not regulatory, its what is negotiated by the union or set by management (non-union airlines).
If you don't like 10 days off then that's something to bring up to the people who make it happen. Some regionals have better schedules than others. 10-12 days off is still better than the 8 the rest of the world gets, granted not always on the same days! If this rule passes, the only way we'll have the days off taken away is if we give it away! |
Originally Posted by iPilot
(Post 675977)
If this rule passes, the only way we'll have the days off taken away is if we give it away!
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Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 675920)
They get 4 weeks vacation, 6 figure pay, nice bonuses, weekends/holidays off, 8hr days... Say that's worth more than 15-18 days off, Jr. assignments/extensions, 15hr duty days with only 5-8hrs block, min coverage days, 2 weeks vacation that must start on mondays and 60G's a yr for a CA 35G's FO. (average) oh... and furloughs.
I traveled an average of 8 nights a month away from home. I never saw a three-day weekend like Labor day completely off. I never had two weeks off in a row - at most one week every other year and I spent at least some of it on the phone or internet on company business. My request for a week of vacation was almost always meet with "do you have to go now?" or "you can take the week of Christmas off." The best retirement plan I had was a 2.5% 401k company match. I saw a bonus only one year (even though I spent seven years working in the "high flying dot-com era"). I had stock options twice (once it was a lot of stock options), both times they expired worthless (80% of all stock options issued do expire worthless). I never saw an annual raise more than 1.25%. The only way to make more money was to get promoted. Period. The only way to just keep your job was to do at least the amount of work described above. After 15 years I walked into my office to see the head of HR and my boss standing there. My position was eliminated in a company reorganization without regard to seniority or tenure or notice (it happen three times in 15 years). I was asked to be out the door in less than 30 minutes. As a pilot, I'm home more, see my wife more, have a better retirement plan, far better insurance, a number of guys below me that would go before I do, union job protection, job security like I have never had before, and an activity I love to do. I can earn more sitting at home on reserve doing nothing than I made as a 8 year middle manager. I'm still adjusting to having more than three days off in a row. We need to fight like h*** to keep it and improve it, because of the number of people lives we have daily in our hands, the level of professionalism required to safely do the job, and the consequences of even minor failure. Management experience's the above in their daily lives and do not understand ours. They only interact on a daily basis with other management personal and management pilots who don't fly regularly. They think we should be made to work the hours they do. They don't understand fatigue. All they know is the fog of their lives and think we should be able to operate aircraft in the same tired fog. Sorry for the rant. |
Can someone please help me understand why we will get screwed by duty time going to 12 hours? I have some Captains telling me this but I am missing something. I dont understand how we will have fewer days off in a month.
Originally Posted by WEACLRS
(Post 675988)
I spent 15 years in non-aviation fortune 500 middle and senior management. My average work week was 55 to 60 hours, 10 to 11 hour days. Up at 5:30am and in the car at 6:30 to commute 45 minutes to work so as to be in the office by 7:15
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Originally Posted by bgmann
(Post 675990)
Can someone please help me understand why we will get screwed by duty time going to 12 hours? I have some Captains telling me this but I am missing something. I dont understand how we will have fewer days off in a month.
So if your current airline has the days off for lines split like this (shortened for space): 10 days off - 50% of all lines 12 days off - 25% 13 days off - 20% 14+ days off - 5% It may end up looking like this: 10 days off - 100% As long as you are on reserve it wont mean anything to you though. |
Originally Posted by WEACLRS
(Post 675988)
I spent 15 years in non-aviation fortune 500 middle and senior management. My average work week was 55 to 60 hours, 10 to 11 hour days. Up at 5:30am and in the car at 6:30 to commute 45 minutes to work so as to be in the office by 7:15 to answer (mostly ignore) 75 to 150 emails and vmails a day. By 8:30a my door was revolving with people and meetings (I had a staff of 75 in the last position) until 6:00p or so. I would work at my desk until 7:30 or 8:00p trying to clear up the critical stuff, drive 35 minutes home, and get in around 9:00. Have dinner with the wife, review a little material for tomorrow, and hit the sack at 11:00p to do it all over again. My fellow directors and I would go into the office on Saturday's from 9 - 3 to clean up as much of the week's desk work as possible. I would take Saturday evening and Sunday morning off. Sunday evening I would work at the home office preparing for Monday. I spent most of the time tired and in a fog.
I traveled an average of 8 nights a month away from home. I never saw a three-day weekend like Labor day completely off. I never had two weeks off in a row - at most one week every other year and I spent at least some of it on the phone or internet on company business. My request for a week of vacation was almost always meet with "do you have to go now?" or "you can take the week of Christmas off." The best retirement plan I had was a 2.5% 401k company match. I saw a bonus only one year (even though I spent seven years working in the "high flying dot-com era"). I had stock options twice (once it was a lot of stock options), both times they expired worthless (80% of all stock options issued do expire worthless). I never saw an annual raise more than 1.25%. The only way to make more money was to get promoted. Period. The only way to just keep your job was to do at least the amount of work described above. After 15 years I walked into my office to see the head of HR and my boss standing there. My position was eliminated in a company reorganization without regard to seniority or tenure or notice (it happen three times in 15 years). I was asked to be out the door in less than 30 minutes. As a pilot, I'm home more, see my wife more, have a better retirement plan, far better insurance, a number of guys below me that would go before I do, union job protection, job security like I have never had before, and an activity I love to do. I can earn more sitting at home on reserve doing nothing than I made as a 8 year middle manager. I'm still adjusting to having more than three days off in a row. We need to fight like h*** to keep it and improve it, because of the number of people lives we have daily in our hands, the level of professionalism required to safely do the job, and the consequences of even minor failure. Management experience's the above in their daily lives and do not understand ours. They only interact on a daily basis with other management personal and management pilots who don't fly regularly. They think we should be made to work the hours they do. They don't understand fatigue. All they know is the fog of their lives and think we should be able to operate aircraft in the same tired fog. Sorry for the rant. |
Originally Posted by Clocks
(Post 675998)
Minimum days off (10, 11, 12, whatever) is in your contract. Maximum days off is not.
So if your current airline has the days off for lines split like this (shortened for space): 10 days off - 50% of all lines 12 days off - 25% 13 days off - 20% 14+ days off - 5% It may end up looking like this: 10 days off - 100% As long as you are on reserve it wont mean anything to you though. This legislation will create a demand for a larger workforce, not only on the regional side but for the majors as well. |
it stands to reason that shorter duty time means less opportunity to maximize flt hrs/day. consequently, fewer days off - commutability proves difficult, and the most significant - less time off.
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Watch out for the laws of unintended consequences, they are a *****.
Today: 8hr scheduled overnight can be covered by 1 flight crew Tomorrow: 8hr scheduled overnight can only be covered by 2 crews. Is the route still profitable with the added expense of overnighting another crew? Would it be more profitable to reduce frequency of flights(less pilots needed) and have 1 crew cover a 10hr overnight? |
Originally Posted by Clocks
(Post 675998)
Minimum days off (10, 11, 12, whatever) is in your contract. Maximum days off is not.
So if your current airline has the days off for lines split like this (shortened for space): 10 days off - 50% of all lines 12 days off - 25% 13 days off - 20% 14+ days off - 5% It may end up looking like this: 10 days off - 100% As long as you are on reserve it wont mean anything to you though. |
Lets not forget that this legislation is about safety. Even if it means a reduction in time off we will all be a little bit safer for it. Particularly those who work for carriers that have no trouble with squeezing the regs every way possible.
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Originally Posted by bgmann
(Post 675990)
Can someone please help me understand why we will get screwed by duty time going to 12 hours? I have some Captains telling me this but I am missing something. I dont understand how we will have fewer days off in a month.
Sounds like my prior job at UPS! |
I thought there was supposed to be an announcement about this sometime soon?
Wassup PKunzip? A----------------B bro |
I, too, don't understand why the 12 hr rule would be bad for QOL. Couldn't mgmt just make the duty days more efficient/productive so that we fly the same amount as we do now but with the shortened duty day? Or is that too much to ask for? Because flying 7 hrs a day doesn't tire me out - 14 hr duty days do. Personally, the optimum work day would be a high block with short duty day which would also result in a shorter work week due to the 30/7 rule.
Some airlines contracts already have a limit on duty day, does that affect the quality of their schedules? |
Don't any of you know people who work for major airlines? Most majors are 12-13 max duty. They fly during the same banks regionals do. They don't all have 10 days off. This is just a scare tactic by the senior guys who fear losing their 18-20 day off schedules (this fear is actually true, most lines will be 14-16 off).
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Originally Posted by Flyby1206
(Post 676038)
Watch out for the laws of unintended consequences, they are a *****.
Today: 8hr scheduled overnight can be covered by 1 flight crew Tomorrow: 8hr scheduled overnight can only be covered by 2 crews. Is the route still profitable with the added expense of overnighting another crew? Would it be more profitable to reduce frequency of flights(less pilots needed) and have 1 crew cover a 10hr overnight? One: They're not going to reduce frequency. If the route could already be covered with fewer flights, they would have already reduced the frequency to save money. The extra couple hundred bucks it will cost them for an extra crew is completely irrelevant. Hell, the gas you burn while taxiing out costs more than it does to overnight another crew. Absolute worst-case, they DO reduce it, and change to bigger equipment (ie: mainline rather than an RJ). That means more flying for mainline and we all win. Two: This is about safety. There are very few things I would risk giving up QOL for, but safety is one of them. We have to be better than the management types who say "Safety is the most important thing" and mean "Money is the most important thing". I'd rather improve a dangerous situation and fight for more days off on the next contract than risk being the next guy that ends up a smoking crater 'cause we were too tired to handle X emergency correctly. |
Originally Posted by Rascal
(Post 676044)
There is plenty of airlines out there with contracts that have 12 hour rule already and they get 18 days off... When I worked at XJT they max scheduled day was 13.5 hrs of duty and yet we had more days off than other regionals without that provision. All this talk about reducing the days off is just managment scare tactics and you suckers are faling for it.
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I am stunned that there are pilots who will talk all day long about safety and then when a significant safety-related rule is about the come down from the authorities they start getting nervous about fewer days off.
The science is done. The debate is over. 16 hour workdays in a safety-critical industry are not safe. Let the chips fall where the may regarding schedules. But this change has been a long time coming and if folks start to get weak kneed about it maybe it won't happen and we can just keep flying from 6AM until 10PM. Anyone who works on the east coast in places like PHL, LGA, EWR, JFK knows that there are plenty of these days. This change must happen sooner rather than later. |
Pilots, Airlines Urge New Fatigue Rules - WSJ.com
By ANDY PASZTOR Representatives of the airline industry and pilots unions agreed to an overhaul of rules aimed at combating cockpit fatigue, according to people familiar with the situation, a move that could bring sweeping changes to the way airlines run their operations. The group urged Federal Aviation Administration chief Randy Babbitt on Wednesday to jettison decades-old regulations that set uniform limits on how many hours pilots can fly and replace them with more flexible rules based on scientific studies about what causes fatigue. The recommendations call for drafting rules that would limit each pilot's flight hours based on the time of day, the number of takeoffs, or segments, during a trip, and the internal body clocks of pilots. The proposal envisions a sliding scale of between seven and 11 scheduled flight hours for pilots per day, compared with the current maximum of eight hours, these people said. Rules on total hours spent on duty, which aren't regulated as strictly as flight time, also would be adjusted. If the FAA moves to implement such far-reaching changes -- which could come at the earliest by the end of next year -- it would substantially alter the workdays of many pilots. It would also likely increase personnel costs for many regional carriers, which fly shorter routes. Many commuter pilots -- who work grueling schedules that include multiple takeoffs and landings a day -- likely would have less time behind the controls than they do now. But major carriers could save, for example, because they could schedule the same cockpit crew for a morning trip from the West Coast to the East Coast and then a return flight the same day, according to people familiar with the proposal. Rules now require a new crew on the second flight. Mr. Babbitt has championed efforts for change in the wake of recent airliner incidents and accidents, including February's crash of a Colgan Air turboprop near Buffalo, N.Y., that killed 50 people. That accident highlighted widespread fatigue faced by commuter crews stemming from reduced rest periods and workdays lasting up to 16 hours. Although the U.K. and other countries pioneered scientifically based pilot scheduling years ago, the U.S. has largely stuck with a one-size-fits-all rule because regulators, airlines and pilots couldn't agree on changes. But in recent years, lawmakers, federal air-accident investigators and outside safety experts have intensified their calls for a sweeping rewrite of fatigue regulations. In spite of broad agreement on much of the package, some portions remain controversial, and the FAA ultimately will have to sort out disagreements. Some of the thorniest disputes involve cargo airlines, which contend they would be economically devastated by portions of the proposal. Some charter carriers that routinely fly at odd hours complain they would also be handicapped. These groups are pushing for a separate set of rules, according to people familiar with the talks. Spokeswomen for the FAA and the Air Line Pilots Association declined to comment, as did a spokesman for the Air Transport Association, which represents mainline carriers. Without discussing specifics, Roger Cohen, head of the country's largest regional airline association, said his group has "total and complete commitment" to the process, and a number of regional airline chiefs participated actively in the deliberations. Commuter pilots are bound to feel more tired than long-haul crews, according to Mr. Babbitt. "There's weight given to [the number of] takeoffs and landings," Mr. Babbitt said in an interview earlier this year, but scheduling issues "are so intertwined" that "we're obliged to address them all at once." The same day, the FAA chief told a pilot safety conference in Washington that existing regulations "don't reflect the difference" between commuter and long-haul operations. "Not only does one size not fit all" carriers, he said, "it's absolutely unsafe to think that it can." Even before discussion of revamped rules, large and smaller airlines stepped up efforts to develop their own fatigue-mitigation techniques and train pilots how to recognize the danger signs of sleeplessness. Regional carriers have assumed a larger role in domestic aviation by offering their big-airline partners less costly flight crews and high productivity. New fatigue rules could erode some of those advantages because they would be required to use more pilots to cover the same flight hours. As it is, the major airlines, themselves financially strapped, are attempting to cut the rates they pay their regional partners and reduce the number of regional planes under their contracts. So tougher fatigue-mitigation regulations could end up hurting the bottom lines of regional carriers. One highly-charged area the group of fatigue experts stayed away from involves personal commuting by airline pilots to get to work. FAA and pilot union officials have said individual aviators ought to be held accountable for reporting rested and in condition to start flying. The FAA-chartered group of experts didn't end up making any formal recommendations on this topic, according to people close to the discussions As federal officials struggle to draft new scheduling principles -- a process a former FAA administrator once called "the third rail of aviation safety regulation" --- European regulators also are working on comprehensive revisions to fatigue-prevention measures. At the same time, international aviation safety groups are prodding other countries and carriers to update workday limits based on the latest scientific data. —Susan Carey contributed to this article. Write to Andy Pasztor at [email protected] |
"If the FAA moves to implement such far-reaching changes -- which could come at the earliest by the end of next year "
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Originally Posted by av8sean
(Post 676116)
Don't any of you know people who work for major airlines? Most majors are 12-13 max duty. They fly during the same banks regionals do. They don't all have 10 days off. This is just a scare tactic by the senior guys who fear losing their 18-20 day off schedules (this fear is actually true, most lines will be 14-16 off).
One gigantic differance, their segments are a lot longer.......... EWR-BTV-CLE-BWI-EWR Not much flight time but could be a very long duty day |
Originally Posted by saab2000
(Post 676171)
I am stunned that there are pilots who will talk all day long about safety and then when a significant safety-related rule is about the come down from the authorities they start getting nervous about fewer days off.
The science is done. The debate is over. 16 hour workdays in a safety-critical industry are not safe. Let the chips fall where the may regarding schedules. But this change has been a long time coming and if folks start to get weak kneed about it maybe it won't happen and we can just keep flying from 6AM until 10PM. Anyone who works on the east coast in places like PHL, LGA, EWR, JFK knows that there are plenty of these days. This change must happen sooner rather than later. Remember, our first priority is safety. We have real actual people sitting behind us when we're flying: women, children, grandmas, grandpas, fathers, sons, daughters, mothers, the works. Would any one of you be comfortable looking any one of them in the eye and saying "Well ma'am, we could have brought our maximum duty days to 12 hours and made it less probable that you'll die in a fiery crash, but we decided that we like our days off better"? Me personally, I'd feel like a dirtbag for that. It's extremely selfish, hypocritical, and shows disregard for the one thing we say we hold as our #1 goal: that is, keeping the flying public safe. So, ask yourselves this: Do you actually care about safety, or do you just say you do? Here's where we can tell the difference. |
Originally Posted by NightIP
(Post 676214)
Exactly. I don't think half of the people screaming about days off have actually worked a 16 hour duty day with 8 hours of flying. I've done it plenty, and it's not safe.
Remember, our first priority is safety. We have real actual people sitting behind us when we're flying: women, children, grandmas, grandpas, fathers, sons, daughters, mothers, the works. Would any one of you be comfortable looking any one of them in the eye and saying "Well ma'am, we could have brought our maximum duty days to 12 hours and made it less probable that you'll die in a fiery crash, but we decided that we like our days off better"? Me personally, I'd feel like a dirtbag for that. It's extremely selfish, hypocritical, and shows disregard for the one thing we say we hold as our #1 goal: that is, keeping the flying public safe. So, ask yourselves this: Do you actually care about safety, or do you just say you do? Here's where we can tell the difference. |
I can’t believe what I read on here sometimes. These selfish individuals worry more about day’s off than killing a full load of passengers in the back. There lack of regard for safety is pathetic. I would be willing to bet it’s the real senior guys who also sell out the junior guys when negotiating for a TA… it’s just the same mentality.
As someone mentioned earlier, many majors already have it in there contract that 12 hours is the max. Obviously there days off are not affected by this so quit giving us this law of unintended consequences crap and start thinking like a professional. |
Originally Posted by StrikeTime
(Post 676304)
I can’t believe what I read on here sometimes. These selfish individuals worry more about day’s off than killing a full load of passengers in the back. There lack of regard for safety is pathetic. I would be willing to bet it’s the real senior guys who also sell out the junior guys when negotiating for a TA… it’s just the same mentality.
For many of us, days off is the only justification left for this career. When I'm at work I'm gone...I need more days off than a nine-to-fiver to balance that out. For me it's about 15 days off to barely break even. Anything less than that and this job is QOL-negative. Eighteen is what I prefer. This is a very, very important issue and is unrelated to safety. The concern that people have is that the FAA will mandate changes which will affect airline economics...especially regionals. It is particularly bad for regionals because they are stuck with their income level and can't change it until the next round of feed contracts. Majors at least can raise ticket prices, and since all majors will be impacted the same it should not be a competitive issue. But the regionals are stuck, and they will do what they always do when backed into a corner...take it out on labor. I think the frustration is that the government is changing the rules but not making any allowance for the impact on us. If I were to be limited to 12 days off, I would quit...unless the company eliminated all overnight trips and did only locals so I could be home each night. What if you told a nine-to-fiver that he was going to have to spend 72 additional hours at work each month, unpaid. He would laugh in your face...
Originally Posted by StrikeTime
(Post 676304)
As someone mentioned earlier, many majors already have it in there contract that 12 hours is the max. Obviously there days off are not affected by this so quit giving us this law of unintended consequences crap and start thinking like a professional.
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Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
(Post 675955)
Me too. 12hr limits is gonna hurt more than help me.
I am not sure what it is now, but AirTran had a very average days off spread through the bid pack. To me, it was ok for the junior guy, but if you were senior, it wasn't great because you really didn't get anything. Defeats the QOL of life debate, thus forcing you to upgrade to get something, ie a higher pay rate. I am not sure that a max duty rule change will be bad. First, as has been mentioned, safety is job one, regardless of what is in the back of the airplane, peeps or boxes. We are a 121 Supplemental Airlines, switching next year to being a 121 Flag Domestic/International. My point is that under 121 Supplemental, things are a lot more relaxed than Flag. Our contract however makes us look like a 121 Flag airline. For example, we have a duty max of 13 hours during from 5AM-4PM, then it switches from 4PM-Midnight to a 11.5 max and between 1AM-5AM we have a max of 9 hours. Our Duty max can be extended an hour and a half for operational reasons and then of course, we can go up to the FAR 16 max. I have never gone to the FAR limit, but have hit the operational extensions a few times. All of the above is for Domestic, International has different rules. SWA has AM or PM flying, they don't fly all day. My point in all of this is that it comes down to rigs or productivity. Each airline and pilot group will have to figure out what works for them. As mentioned, COEX had duty limits also, so it can be done. |
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