All I'm saying is that if you want to travel somewhere under some sort of privelage just call up a chief pilot. Remember when you interviewed at ASA? You got the voucher to fly to the interview and back. The same can be done while on furlough. I don't care if you come back or not, it's completely your decision. I'm just giving you an option if you want to interview elsewhere...

From everything I'm rearing, YES, it will. It will greatly increase our chances of winning an RFP (one ASA has already bid on, and are now revising their bid) that will provide a home for the 20 50s.

Uh, I'm pretty sure this information is incorrect. The sad reality is that DELTA, not ASA, not SkyWest controls out pass "privileges" 100%. ASA has absolutely no say in the matter.

They tried to negotiate furloughee pass "privileges" and DELTA's response was give up "S3 on your own metal". Obviously that was a deal killer. That would be the majority sacrificing for the few.

gtech - Calm down man, I know it feels, I was part of the 80. It sucks but the truth is that their is NOTHING you and I can do about it. Tell you the truth many of us didn't use out pass benefits much/at all after we got furloughed. What's the point in going places when you cannot afford it with no job. There was a e-mail sent out when I got furloughed and when you got furloughed saying that if you need to fly for an interview call them and they can see about hooking you up with a seat. Our fate is entirely on ALPA our pilot group and how they work with management. I am sure it is anger and frustration that causing you to blow your lid here and I do agree that there are a few at ASA that has been with them since they had a 121 job. Therefor they do not know what life under furlough is like. But remember there are MANY here at ASA that came from other airlines that was much worst with the furlough gun. They understand very well the situation we are in. Also what's the point of staying with an airline if it is bleeding money and cannot grow? PBS is something that we have to do sooner or later, otherwise everyone is going out underbid us. We just need to hope that our MECs are taking carefull steps so that PBS doesn't skrew us. Some say that's impossible others say it is. PBS can HELP ensure ASA future by lowering our costs. I dunno about you but one reason I came to ASA was because they paid well. This means higher costs for ASA at the same token, even more reason why PBS can save us. SKYW, RJET both pay well also and they use PBS. Our QOL maybe on line but crappy pay and lots of time off aint much of a QOL also. Let's just wait and see the details on PBS and as far as pass travel just contact the chief pilot or go on the ASA ALPA board. There are a few pilots on there that are donating their buddy passes also. You are senior to me buddy, hope to see you in the class ahead of me when we are recalled.

Would IAD go senior or junior?

I don't understand how ASA could pick up United flying. Why wouldn't Skywest just take it themselves and avoid incurring the initial expenses, training, etc. of getting the operation spooled up at ASA. Couldn't they just take the 200s that we're parking?

Not sure what training would be required. The pilots are already qualified on the aircraft. All that changes is the base of operations. IAD would be new for Skywest and ASA alike.

I do remember in training they mentioned something about a scope (something in the line of not flying for 2 different carriers out of the same coast/airport? or a certain amount of flying can be done? i dunno) and that is why it's good for ASA and SKYW to stay separate.

But if we are just talking about expenses then one can argue why don't SKYW just hand us all the DL flying and they take the UAL?

They already have like 129 200s and not all are being used, they don't want ours. My guess is Inc. wants us both to diversify, DL has too much leverage on us.

The company can not understandably say much about these things, but where can the reasonable assurance come from that if the pilots back it and vote PBS in that they won't be played a fool if the RFP is lost to another carrier.

Also, what's the time frame of voting it in?

Why won't the flying go to SkyWest? Simple answer. When a company shrinks, its unit costs go up. When a company grows, its costs go down. SKW Inc. needs to grow ASA to lower our costs. There would be no training costs.

As for SkyWest taking the 50s, they don't need them. They are already fat... that's why they're in ATL and CVG.

Just from looking at the email ALPA sent out with he highlights, i will be voting no. we didnt get ANYTHING in return if we give then pbs. I need a SkyWest guy to correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe they get 35 hours of virtual credit for vacation. we get 24.5 with an option for 4 more. With opentime, some of the crappiest contracts in history allowed you to pick up or drop partial trips. this would would cost the company $0 dollars to implement, they just didnt want to give us the satisfaction. and extending the contract by an extra year is a definite no go. there are so many areas that need patched, i dont want drag it out for a another year.

things i would like to see in the PBS TA:

equal or greater value for vacation as skywest, at least some changes to the reserve system(the big one being that they can not move your off days), min day credit of 4.0, an increase in min days off for line holders and reserves, maybe even a little pay raise, opentime pickups credited on top of 75(even if the line you are awarded is only 65 hours).

I could go on forever. dont give up more QOL for a 1% raise in 2010. i dont see how we are getting anything in return for our sacrifice. and dont vote yes because you think its inevitable that pbs is coming. dont vote yes because john pennecamp says we are going to "grow like crazy". those words alone should be a red flag. we were suppose to "grow like crazy" after we signed the ta in 2007, but the facts are that asa has not grown for 10 years, so dont think for a second that voting this in will change anything.

Your guess is as good as mine. Obviously people who commute from that area would jump on it. We also have quite a few who commute from CAE, and I'm hearing that the CAE will be a jump over point between ATL and IAD, kind of like BTR. That's the reason for the CAE maintenance expansion.

I'd also guess the DFW "anywhere but hellanta" crowd would look into it too, but DFW-IAD would be a hard commute.

One option ASA has is to run a virtual base, or even flow people through as we do now in CVG. From what I've heard, ASA has said they will not open a base unless they get a three year commitment since we've been burned so many times with that (SLC, LAX).

Easy answer... September 2007, all over again. They won't double cross this pilot group.

Keep in mind that what you saw is only concepts! The negotiations are ongoing. Wait until the actual language is written, and what it actually means is explained at the roadshows. Would you reflexively push the fire switch just because the master warning alarms? Of course not! Well that's basically what you're doing by saying at this early stage you'll vote no!!!

maybe you should re-read it. it says those are the highlights of the AGREEMENT. to me, that means that those parts are already agreed upon and they are waiting to make it formal for the LOA. they might change some wording so the company can navigate around things easier(red arrow days for example), but its likely the numbers wont change.

what were some of the things you wanted to see come with the pbs proposal?

With all due respect, you're showing a misunderstanding of how the process works, and your statements are incorrect. They AGREED to CONCEPTS. It is all subject to change once the final negotiations take place and the language is written. This is not like the TA for a contract... they are writing an LOA. The devil is in the details. Basically, all they announced is that they're sitting down and having serious negotiations now. Up to this point is has been abstract "what if" discussions.

I Agree, so far I see nothing we are getting in return that even comes close to the loss of qol for taking pbs. Fix the open time? Big deal we could fix that in the next contract. And what open time with pbs, don't forget that is what pbs does it eliminates most open time. Forget about improving your line or building it up to 95 hours unless your very senior. And just like the used car salesman telling you "better act now I have another guy with a deposit on this car" the company telling us we will grow like crazy is a joke. But hey they already have John P. spreading the word! Now a clause with guaranteed flying is something to look at but a rumor, Please. All I see so far is working more days per year/shorter vacations, less pay buy not being able to build up my line, less control over my schedule/overnights.

It defaults to 2.9 hours per day of vacation but we can change this before bidding opens. We can choose to set the value per day from 2.5 - 3.75 hours.

Would I be correct in saying that PBS saves money because we, the pilots, will be making less with optimized 75 hr credit lines and the drastic reduciton in open time? That sucks but we'll end up having to take the hit to save the company money if PBS is to get voted in regardless sometime soon. I guess I just don't see how money is saved without taking it away from us. I don't totally understand the workings of PBS so I really don't have much knowledge to base anything off of about it.

At what point does Management or the Company make a concession ? This trend is all too familiar with any and all airlines, someone needs to make a stand here and get something good and I can only hope that is what we're doing here...

And just why would anyone select to get paid less credit? i.e 2.5 instead of 3.75???

PBS is overall a good thing. The initial transition to PBS can be painful because it is very efficient and needs less pilots, but as far as scheduling goes it is great.

I hear guys saying how PBS screws everyone except the most senior Pilots - how can that be? The same amount of trips flown each month as before but now every pilot has more control over their schedule.

If you are junior before PBS you do not have much control but if you are junior after PBS you should at least be able to get specific days off. Obviously a junior guy will not be getting off on holidays or most weekends but that is no different then before PBS. When you just consider that the same rotations will be flown before PBS as after PBS, but now you have more options in selecting them, you will see it is a scheduling plus.

You are obviously going to hear good and bad about PBS prior to actually using it - keep an open mind and decide for yourself once you use it. One more thing - there are a lot less guys on reserve with PBS - more lineholders which is a good thing. :)

Scoop

How can there be more line holders?

Management makes concessions when we are in the driver's seat and they are competing for our work...That simply isn't the case right now due in part to the economy...due in part to deregulation....and due in part to ALPA's total failure at controlling the product we deliver...

You need two things for your wish to come true...

1. An improving economy.

and

2. ALPA's ability to stop the "bidding for flying" and the absurdly low barriers to entry to become a pilot.

In the absent of those two things.....Management won't be making concessions...It's all about leverage....

so, we are getting PBS. And at what cost? I say no, for now. We have been sold out. I might be ok with that if the MEC were honest but they are not. we have furloughed a number of pilots, 156 I think, but we are at the limit. Then we downgrade 65 captains. Then suddenly, after a dramatic impass, we TA PBS? We have been tossed under the bus. No way around it. I hate to call names but if you think this is a coincidence then you are an idiot!

I say VOTE NO on ALL ALPA encumbents! Vote them out! Not becuase they sold us out thogh but because they didnt tell us!


Vote them out and lets start new!

lll be honest, there are some major pros and cons of PBS.

Biggest con in the eyes of the junior pilots is that the company could reduce the pilot group in size to save money in the long haul. Although with the no furlough clause it should greatly mitigate or prevent this from happening.

The main Pro being the efficiency of scheduling and man hours which yields greater productivity at a lower cost compared to the current bidding system.

I am a fence sitter and I cant be swayed too easily. When the road shows are out please let me know, im excited what they have to show us....

John P said it best, just wait for their end product. Then make comments.I am not a company man either, but if it could increase efficiency, yield enticing Bid packets to other carriers why not...

There are a lot more line holders because PBS is more efficient and builds lines around pre-month conflicts. The down side of this is generally less flights in open time.

For example, and I am using rough figures from memory, DAL used to have around 30 reserve lines for every hundred lines (this is a ballpark estimation) and now with PBS we are shooting for around 15 per hundred. Obviously different categories are manned based on specific needs but this general trend held true for all categories.

DAL uses 85% as the ballpark number for lineholder vs reserve. It does not hold each month and if we are carrying extra pilots there will be more than 15% on reserve, but the system is made to run with 15% reserves.

So on the plus side of PBS - less Pilots on reserve.
On the down side - less open time for Pilots to choose from.

Scoop

Scoop, I see that, all of the conflicting trips from new month, training, and vacation will be used to make more lines instead of going into open time. The training and vacation days lost will result in more working days per year and less open time takes away from your ability to improve your line or build it up to increase pay. I maximize my days off during vacation months for qol and all summer I was able to add 20-25hrs to my lines by swapping and pick up to increase pay. I will lose that ability for the most part. I would not be willing to give that up.

Jerry Atkins stopped by our groundschool class to chat last fall(ATR peeps in jetschool) He said ASA payrates are not a problem in regards to the high cost. The linebidding system was the problem, especially at the beginning of the month due to the conflicts. He said that was costing the company a ton of money.

They are trying to get ASA inline with SKW cost wise. PBS maybe one of the final pieces to the puzzle.

Is a rotation what we would call a line pairing? If so, the sounds like we get the same crappy line pairings now plugged into PBS?

As you've shown Maxcackel, here and on FI, it's all about you. It's really not worth explaining to you, because all you can see is yourself.

We have the best contract in the industry. Our high cost is keeping us from growing, which further hurts our costs. We can either give major concessions in negotiations, or give minor concessions in PBS now.

This is important, because it will help get our costs inline with other comparable carriers (mainly SkyWest). Do you want ASA to be the next Comair? I don't.

PS, loved the cheap shot on FI. Maybe you should join the discussion on the ASA ALPA board and stand behind your opposition, instead of making guerrilla terrorist attacks while hiding behind a screen name.

Regardless, I'm not being a used car salesman. I'm telling you from an informed viewpoint that I think this is good for us, good for ASA, and that I think our pilots should simply give it a chance before automatically voting no.

Our DCA with DAL opens up next year, and SkyWest will very likely be taking cuts in profit margin since we aren't even close to the "second from the bottom" cost target.

DING! DING! DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!

Unnecessary.

Whoa! Cheap shot from a furloughee! Awesome!

Also Unnecessary.

Well Marc, "know it alls" like me are working hard to get the furloughees back by getting this company to a position where can grow. I do know one thing, and that's if we shoot this deal down, we will not be in a favorable cost position to win any RFPs. I know for a fact that ASA HAD to get this deal done before October 1. It has nothing to do with the union elections, it has to do with bidding on the UAL RFPs.

Whichever way the vote goes I hope it helps bring back the furloughed guys/gals sooner, if PBS does that then great.

However, even if we do vote PBS in and it helps bring our costs inline with Skywest I still think we will continually lose in new RFPs because our performance numbers aren't as good as an airline like Pinnacle and we cost significantly more. Why would Delta or anyone else choose us?

Everyone should approach PBS with an open mind, learn about it, and then make an educated vote.

Will, while I appreciate that you provide relevant info sometimes and, dare I say, that you actually care about the plight of everyone in the pilot group. But there are two sides to every argument and you rely heavily on condescension to make your point. It's not that your position is invalid, but who wants to listen?

Personally, I'm all for PBS. But if the TA is a pile of crap then it doesn't matter what deadline is looming. Until the details are out, everything in between is speculation.

<PM and personal flamebait removed> Ah, beat me to it.