ASA PBS agreed to
 

All:

I am pleased to share that ASA and ALPA have worked together to come to a conceptual agreement on a preferential bidding system (PBS) program for ASA. Details about the new program will be communicated over the coming weeks by ALPA and we will work together on implementation over the next several months. I appreciate the hard work that representatives from both ASA and ALPA put forth to reach this agreement.

-Charlie

Comments?

Hoser
ROLL TIDE!

Unless you have a 35+ page LOA with strong language I can only say one thing.


I am sorry.



If you are senior, you will prob like it. Mid-level it's hit or miss, not much control other than a couple specific days off and some preference to trips, if you are junior- no control.

At least that's how it works at pinnacle and I think we have been running it the longest at the regional level (may be wrong there).

When did you guys start running PBS?

Best of luck. PBS is a joke.

Awesome if your senior, as they get exactly what they want.

Mid-level, its hit and miss; some months good, others terrible.

Junior = bend over. You will get nothing you ask for, generally backed up against one another.

Common schedule at Mesa: 4 on, 1 off, 4 on, 2 off, 4 on, 2 off, 2 on, 3 off, 1 on, 1 off, 4 on. You get the idea. Not commuter friendly whatsoever.

I'd say wait for ALPA to laydown the details before jumping to conclusions. Also, some of you have mentioned it in other ASA forums, we do have the 5yr review from DL next year and PBS would save us a lot of money.

Well check you email... ALPA sent out a little more information... not much more.

Take a good look at the SKYW program. Has been running for about four years now and most people prefer it to hard lines.

All I can say is that this further affirms that ALPA sold out the guys who were furloughed - after months of the company 'not coming to the table' an agreement is reached less than two weeks after the latest round. Nice.

And, no, I'm not bitter! :p

awesome.......

yeah, timing's interesting, isn't it.

Ya know... I was thinking the same thing but my question is wouldn't this "hurt" their reelection if the intent was to sell us out? I understand us furloughed guys have no vote but the active pilots do if this turns to a bust. Also even if ALPA itself has agreed to it, the pilots have to vote it in. There is still 5 months? till the current ALPA guys terms are up, ALPA is supposed to release more information on this "agreement" so there should "in theory" be plenty of time to see how good or bad this deal really is. And if it is bad, well our fellow pilots have control of its fate.

You all are so screwed. Our PBS sort of rewards the guys at the top (although once the "unstacking" starts, they get screwed too) and screws the most junior guys and reserves.

Good luck ever getting days off you ask for unless you're #1 or 2 on your roster, and never ever getting them off if you're a reserve.

And stand by for more furloughs... Our management has managed to use use PBS to furlough more and more pilots, figuring they can JRA and offer incentive flying to guys who will stab their mothers for opentime at 1.5x the normal rate.

PBS is designed for mainline carriers who have their own schedules, and want to staff the routes... it's not for Fee-For-Depature carriers whose trips come from other sources and are constrained by what they get rather than what they build themselves.

NO PBS... Hope it's gone soon... and if you get it, you're gonna regret it without language to hold Management's feet to the fire. Otherwise you're gonna get burned.

I got the lowdown directly from the source today (an ASA ALPA PBS negotiator).

You all are going to like this. We got most of what we asked for. It will not be anything like what SkyWest has... more like what DAL has. We also got some "problems" with the current contract fixed. Most importantly, ASA has agreed that there will be no need for additional furloughs. The "source" says ASA management thinks this is going to cause us to grow like crazy.

I beg you all (ASA pilots) to wait for the details to become public before deciding. Don't listen to the pundits at other airlines telling you PBS sucks. We are completely reinventing it. Those tho know me know I'm one of ALPA's biggest critics, but after hearing the details, I have to admit I'm impressed. We got a good PBS system, yet DID NOT overreach.

The process is going to be slow. Don't expect implementation for at least six months. Stay tuned as info becomes public.

I agree 100%... wait till details are out. But....... what does this mean for the 136 guys that got kicked to the curb? Is ASA really going to attempt next summers flying 56 pilots short of 2009's summer staffing plus attrition? Granted attrition is slow.. but we are still losing around 10-15 pilots every 6 months. I have already gone up almost 50+/- since ASA STOPPED hiring/about 25+/- since the 1st round of furloughs. How lean does ASA want to run staffing at? It's GREAT that no more pilots will get furloughed but hey... all that's left is the ones on the no furlough clause that SEEMS to be holding right now. So that really isn't a gain, more like a draw. These are just concerns and opinions, not conclusions. Like I said... I agree wait till details are out.

If this makes us grow like ASA thinks it will, the furloughs will be back quickly. ASA thinks we will be well positioned to capture the RFPs that are out there. And I heard this through the ALPA filter!

oh yeah good plan, lets kill qol by giving the company complete control over schedules so we can get all those RFPs out there. Cause you know theres a *******load of RFPs out there now. And I dont see too many RFPs in the next 5 years either. Except for if UA puts the nail in mesas coffin.

PBS sucks, like said before if your not senior its a hit or miss, and if you dont believe me. Wait till your months when you have either vacation/recurrent GS/or a PC. You get hosed royally.

I hear Express Jet is getting the United RFP anyway. Regarding the furloughs, they are already out and will only get back through attrition at the Regionals or through growth. Not by schedule making.

I'm unfamiliar with the DAL system, can you explain it and the differences between the Skywest system?

Not to steer the thread, but everyone says they think they are getting the RFP's.

Back to pref-bid. PBS CAN be done well- the question is "well" for who? If the company doesn't have rules against them it works well for them, all pilots get loaded up on trips and it can even be junior based for higher time lines (saves the company $$). It can work well for pilots if you are senior OR have firm enough restrictions on the construction of your line- especially with training, vacations, and other pre-assigned calendar items.

For one thing, DALPA has final QC on all lines and can make the company rerun categories if QOL drops. The lines aren't posted until line pilots approve them. I'm 45 from the bottom of a 450 pilot category, ATL ER B, and I've gotten my first choice of days off for the last 6 months. Seems to work here.

The timing probably has more to do with positioning the company to bid for some upcoming flying for our 50 seaters we're losing out of the DCI system. I really don't think the PBS work has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with the effective date on the last round of furlough's. I understand it's easy to be mad at the union/company/industry/world when you get furloughed but you have got to be on board with what is better for the company in regards to getting more flying so you can get your butt back in the seat. Would you be happier if the was still a wall between the union and company regarding PBS so we can remain one of the most expensive bids for any flying we try and get?

There were several people, myself included, who predicted that the company would only come to the table for PBS after everyone unprotected by the no furlough clause was gone. PBS makes absolutely no sense for the company in a stagnant economy unless they shed pilots and so they did. Not two months ago, the union said the company was not offering anything and suddenly not two weeks after the last furloughs, the company is more agreeable?

Are you furloughed? Have you been? If so, you might be in a position to understand. Besides, I have every right to be mad at a company that is laying off so many employees while still being VERY profitable and while throwing frivolous parties like Aceyplaooza. Trying to get help or communication from the union has been worse than getting my last root canal! As for the industry/world, it is what it is, so why get upset?

I am definitely not onboard with something that will keep me on the street longer unless it improves quality of life for the pilot group. I reserve judgement there, but don't kid yourself about ASA getting additional flying anytime soon to bring us back. Between PBS and the loss of the ATRs, we will still have a net loss of pilot positions, even if we place all 20 50-seaters.

Nothing personal meant by any of this, but between the cold shoulder from the union, the upcoming elections and the timing of recent announcements, I'm fairly confident in saying (without emotion) our MEC sold the furloughees out.

Cold shoulder from the union? The pilots are paying for your COBRA payments... how is that a cold shoulder?

I feel for you, being unemployed in this market (I have a close friend in a very similar state). But what more would you want the union to do?

And, like others have said, the only way you're getting your job back is via 1. attrition (not likely) or 2. growth. PBS gives us a much, much better chance to grow. It may suck in the short term, but long term hopefully things are rosy.

Not that I am totally agreeing with the MEC selling the furloughs out, I think the company realized when we started PBS negotiations and that one of our MEC's requirements of PBS was no more furloughs, the company decided to stop pushing PBS until they could furlough at the end of the summer and then go right back to pushing PBS. I think this is more of the company's fault than the MEC.

Like you, not to steer the thread, but you have a good point. Besides, it may be multiple carriers that get awarded it.

See above, if XJT gets awarded any of it, especially the turbo prop part, they (or any other all jet carrier that bid on it) is going to have to absorb some serious costs to get it going. Unless UAL wants to help out, but I really don't see that happening.

For ASA, probably not as much. For XJT, even though it's still on the certificate, they haven't operated a prop in years. Getting them out of the desert, dusting off the training program, getting the senior geezers in the training department re-schooled on the aircraft isn't going to be cheap, nor easy.

I was at ASA and finally had to leave because of the circus named management. They always promised the stars, but had no clue why nothing ever materialized. Money is not why I left. I am $40K lighter in the wallet, pre-tax, than if I stayed. I won't pass the financial break even point on the move for about 6 more years.

I preface with that information only to say I would do it again in a heartbeat because of ALPA at ASA. If leadership has changed, my apologies. Otherwise, ALPA leaders at ASA were ineffective, incompetent, and did not provide good representation for ASA's members. When ALPA sold me up the river along with 100 other pilots because they were more interested in a p***in match with management, that was the last straw for me. Beware of anything this group "sells," much less negotiates. Read it carefully. Understand what it means. Then vote your conscience.

I wish the best for you guys over there. I had just had my fill and had to move on. And while some on here will say, "good riddance" of a bad apple, understand that I was not by any means the most disgruntled person to leave. Remember October 2006? Not many "dream" jobs hiring that month. ASA lost 65 captains. Where did they go? I know where about 20 of them went. Different places around the industry. I do know that when asked why they were leaving, it was almost a unanimous they were making the happiest decision in their careers.

A few years of my many there, ASA was a decent place to work, maybe even good. It just always reverted back to crappy. Present example, junior manning while furloughing. PBS may work out for ASA. Just verify it is your best interests before implementing it. +1 to the person making the comment about schedules and RFP's. ASA will win RFP's based on bid price partially controlled by price structure. The only way PBS affects a lower RFP bid price is by lowering labor costs, i.e. less pilots, or less over guarantee flying. Therefore management is running the same circus as when I was there. "Do this for us, trust us, and we will grow like crazy and your QOL and paycheck will improve." Be very wary if ALPA sings the same song. Past performance has not proved their trustworthiness.

Yeah, that's the company being the company though. I kind of expected that behavior from them. The thing is that the MEC knew (from talking to committee members I flew with) that the company would do this and just shrugged. I was told by MEC members that PBS would not help the company unless they furloughed or there was massive attrition, so here we are!

Hey, good luck on your run at it - it really would be nice to see someone representing all of the FO's interests!

I'm not bashing the pilot group there, but ask anyone furloughed how easy it is to get info from 'our' union.

As for being unemployed, the only thing I would have asked from the union was for us to have the same flight benefits that the first group had so that I could more easily make it to interviews. Unfortunately, and I am almost quoting what I was told when I asked, the union had little interest in fighting for that when there were so many larger issues to deal with.

As for returning to ASA, the best possibility actually is attrition. I may eat my words on this later, but I'd be surprised to see any actual growth even if Mesa magically goes under. And if the 20 50-seaters don't find work, expect more furloughs, even with PBS.

Don't get me wrong, I think PBS is the future and needs to happen, but the timing it suspicious and I hope everyone thinks long and hard before accepting anything substandard just to 'keep us competitive'.

Ok, back to lurking, don't mind the troll.

As ASA is the one that provides flight benefits, your anger is misplaced. Since we don't "own" furloughee flight benefits in the contract, all ALPA could do is ask nicely. I'm sure they did that, and I'm sure ASA told them to pound sand.

Flight benefits are a negotiated privilege, not something ASA provides out of the goodness of their hearts. Our union negotiated the benefit for one group but not the second? Why is that acceptable? And personally, I don't like or trust union leadership who is ok with being told to pound sand. But, I don't get a voice in the next election so just blowing smoke here. ;)

Well, we never had furloughed pilots before. Why waste negotiating capital on something that may never be used? We didn't have flight benefits until recently, as far as the history of ASA... I'm sure back then they never considered furloughing pilots.

That being said, in the next contract I'm sure it will be something to go for, but that's no consolation for you.

Does it bring back the Furloughed guys... if it has growth in it then the 156 guys on the street should be happy with this news or is it going to JA @150% ? If your source is correct then that should be great news for the guys and gals on the street.

Explain how that's going to happen under the currect contract. Do you think the company is going to just do what they want and furlough more. You should know one of ASA's biggest priorities right now is performance. It's on edge right now and if the company furlough's more, regardless of the contract, the performance will go down the toilet. Then the company has alot more to worry about than running a little fat on pilots for a while.

One thing that I think causes alot of the negative thinking and a "dark tunnel" future is because the company keeps their lips shut about everything. If any good news comes ASA's way such as a new RFP, new planes, etc... we'll read about it hear or on a news channel first. Then later that day or the next day we'll see it on ourASA. They've learned to just not say anything and tell SH, CT, chief pilots etc... to keep their mouths shut until the news is officially out.

.................. forget it

You seem awfully bitter and that's understandable, however you need to figure out how things work. Who do we get our pass benefits through???? DELTA. Delta provides our pass benefits and no matter how much of a negotiated BS thing you think they are, Delta provides the benefits and calls the shots. Hence the decrease to S3C and the paying 200 bucks per year when it used to be 50. From Scott's mouth, they asked Delta to provide the same 6 month pass benefits for the furloughed pilots and Delta said, in order to give them benefits, then Delta rides s3 on ASA. Well, obviously ASA told them hell no.

Yea, what the above poster said. If ASA gives up the S3 boarding to Delta on ASA flights we'll never get it back. The furloughed pilots will come back and get their benefits. If you are so hell bent on leaving ASA then why not just talk to a chief pilot when you need to fly anywhere, for an interview or whatever, and I'm sure they can help you out...

Again, why was ASA able to get 6 months of benefits for a larger group and why did some MEC members claim credit for getting those benefits the first time around? I guarantee that giving up S3 was not the issue, especially because it came from SH! I give though, no more arguments from me!

Seriously? ASA kicked me to the street and said don't expect to come back for a year or more. You think I should be sitting on my ass the whole time? Do you even know what the job market is like right now? I'd honestly like to return - the pilot group in general is a great group of guys and I enjoy the work. So why the personal goading? BTW, the chief pilots were willing to offer buddy passes when we asked.

Anyway, have fun with it! Regards, Marc Nicholson

Actually, if you do think about, we have had benefits for what?... 10 years now, that would be a third of ASA's history. Quite a bit of time I'd say.

I was going to comment on this attitude, but never mind. I won't change your mind, and the moderators will just send me more hate mail. I hope you have success finding a job outside of ASA. Hopefully it will be so good you choose not to come back.

To you PBS doubters, let's wait and see the actual agreement before we decide.

Don't know who mentioned the RFPs, but I have strong intelligence from multiple sources inside and outside of ASA, that lowering our costs by agreeing to PBS, in conjunction with the stability of locking in another year of the contract bodes very, very well for us in the October United RFP. Coincidentally, that flying begins in April, when our 20 50s become available. IAD anyone?