You are worth ZERO as an FO regardless of your qualifications.

Start with that mindset when you negotiate with your employer - whether it be via collective bargaining or one-on-one with a potential non-union employer. We don't deserve anything and our value is worth nothing. It is strictly a numbers and business game and not an emotional game. That is why management is always one step ahead of you - because they know how to negotiate and most of us are hung up on what we think we are worth.

Donald Trump and Warren Buffet didn't become billionaires because that is what they thought they were owed - they mastered the art of the deal.

Even if there was the mythical gigantic pilot shortage, management will find a way around it with out actually paying more to attract pilots from 135, corporate, military, etc. I don't know what it is but I'm sure they are all thinking of something just in case. It could be ab initio, single pilot cockpit, the return of the 250 hour wonders, imported Chinese pilots, or simply cut the number of flights back since they can't staff the airplanes.

Assuming there is a shortage the most realistic thing I see happening is that they will simply park the airplanes they can't staff and create a huge shortage in the supply for tickets. That will drive up ticket prices and fatten all of their wallets, not ours.

The ATP mins at the regionals would help a little but I have a feeling that will die a quiet death in Congress courtesy of the RAA and ATA.

The 2007 shortage was huge and the academies could barely keep up with 250 hour pilots getting hired left and right. This all came crashing down with the recession and 65. I think once the economy starts its turn and 65 gears up again, there will be a shortage. I believe it will be short lived however. How long does it take the old pilot puppy mills and new ones to start to fire up again? then how long does it take them to put out a product, and interview passable pilot? That is how long the "Shortage" will last, unless ATP mins are passed by congress. I doubt they will. It is congress, they don't work for the people, it's the lobbyists that have their ear.
The next thing you do if you don't have enough pilots is put more passengers in each plane. Ala CRJ900 and E-190's for regional stuff. They seem to be doing a good job at increasing the amount of passengers that we fly around without increasing our pay, and they love it. If regional pilots start to cost too much, we either undercut each other or Mainline does the flying. Once Mainline takes back its jobs, Demand for regional pilots goes away, hence the end of a shortage.
Sorry it doesn't flow well just thinking and typing

I agree with you in general, but teachers have very high career stability, and their employment is not at constant risk from medical, training, incidents, furlough, BK, etc. They also generally have good benefits and in many places get a lot of time off during the year. Like other civil servants, you take less cash in exchange for stability and benefits. I know, some districts pay very poorly, but all you have to do is pick up and relocate...many districts have great pay and benefits. NV I think is very hard up right now.

Also I think financial duress is a safety issue...if you have to work another job, commute due to cost-of-living, worry about money, or live like an itinerant worker you are not going to be at the top of your game. Personally I think about $50K is the minimum...probably a bit much for a guy based in Little Rock, but it falls short for those in NY, SFO, etc.

I'm not a CFI, but am one who is looking to enter the profession. Based on my personal research, enrollment is down at flight training academies/schools/FBO's. The reason....the economy.

I'm in this for the love of the vocation. I've always wanted to fly, but it wasn't until later in life that the opportunity has presented itself and I plan on taking full advantage of it. Not into the SJS, or have the "will fly for free" mindset, because I have bills to pay, a child to raise, and desire a decent and sustainable QOL.

My expectations are simple. I've taken steps to do some networking, so that when hiring does pick up again, (....and I'm talking about continuous advertisement & actual hiring of pilots on a consistent basis....), I hope to be in a position of favorable consideration. I've joined organizations, attended conferences, attend Car & Business Aircraft Review Shows, and sometimes just go out to places like Galaxy and Signature and chat up with some of the Part 91 & 135 flightcrews that I run into. In addition to knowing your craft, who you know plays a big part in potential employment. Also, I have to able to fit in and/or adapt to the culture of my employer.

My desire is to fly corporate aircraft and maybe, just maybe, make it to the major Cargo industry (FedEx or UPSCO as an FO). I've read some posts in the Cargo Section where some guys were hired with as little as 3000 hours, yet meeting all other criteria to be considered for a flight crewmember position. Chances are if that happened, I'd be an FO for my entire career.... which would be ok with me.




atp

I got into this in a very different way than most. I didn't grow up wanting to fly. Not that I'm not glad to be here, but it's been a very different road for me.

The reason for the question was simply curiosity about who's getting into it and why. The money is not great and there are no great opportunities on the immediate horizon.

And you think the other "professionals" did not select their profession because they enjoyed it as much as you enjoyed flying?

Before any individual dedicates themselves to a career path they should do their due diligence. My sister did (she's no angel just a personal example), and she was rewarded with a stable career as you pointed out. Though I would like to mention that her school has lost many teachers and all sports due to budget cutbacks so the profession is not immune from economic cycles or poor management. Regardless of what flight schools sell these guys, they should do their own research to see what the realities of the profession are. If they don't, then they're no better than the people that told themselves they could afford a 400k house on 65k a year just because they could get a loan. And if a person believes their services are worth 50k or 70k a year, don't do it for 20k and then complain. Just don't take the job in the first place. My problem with the poster that I quoted was that he felt entitled to 70k simply based on his investment. How about hard work and experience? When did a 100k golden ticket become become a replacement for such qualities?

As far as financial duress being a safety issue, I agree completely. However, the individual entered in to the contract knowingly, thus putting themselves in to a financially stressful situation while at the same time entering a very demanding and uncertain career. Who's fault is that?

I think no such thing. I only used that in comparison to another low paying profession like teaching, where the motivations of those who commit their lives to it are not entirely selfish. Not all, but many teachers who slug it out in schools for 30 or more years feel it's their duty to serve society by improving the minds of our nations children. There are other professions with similar individuals, Law (pro-bono, non-profit, and government service work), medical (similar to law), missionary work (here is a different breed of pilot), police, military etc.... They may love their job, but it's the product of their work that they derive their primary satisfaction from.

True statement. But there are many folks who invest far less and still make $70K. It all comes down to what the market will bear.


Many young folks get sucked in by the allure of the profession...the flight schools, aviation colleges, and regional airlines do nothing to discourage that line of thinking, most even encourage it to so as to get access to fat credit lines (schools) and cheap meat-in-the-seat (regionals).

Ultimately it comes down to individual responsibility...but it's hard not get scammed. I had a lady approach me at a gate area, she was proud that her son is headed off to ERAU this fall even though it was costing a fortune (she obviously could not afford it easily). I had to bite my tongue hard not to give her a very blunt assessment of the scam she was involved in. If I had had the time, I would have tried to sit down with her and explain some things. All I could do was say that she should look into some other training options to save some money. That kid's Mom fell for it, or didn't do good research...her reserach was probably limited to what the flight school hustlers told her :rolleyes: I can't really hold the kid responsible at that age if the parents bought off on it. Parents are supposed to be responsible about stuff like that.