AMEN. We tried to get an underground movement going last year to overthrow the IBT, but half of us were threatened by the Teamsters with phone calls and e-mails. The drive lost steam for fear of getting crucified for trying to start a movement against the Brotherhood. Ridiculous.

I for one haven't been happy with the IBT from day one here, and I agree, their treatment to the YX pilot group has been too "high and mighty" for my taste. The EXCO has no balls and the IBT is worthless.

I feel for the Midwest group, but my ONLY complaint is being labeled a scab and being blamed for what happened. I stuck my ass on a clothes line last year to fuel a movement for ALPA.....call us low cost labor all you want...bash the IBT ALL you want....but nobody has a single right to label us scabs. There ARE people here who realize the problem lies with our representation and there ARE people here who are willing to walk off the job and fight the good fight. Its not fair to kick us down when we've been trying...believe me.

But I feel the wind is changing....and the IBT may be gone by the time the dust settles.

Airdale, you maybe on your own. Republic pilots have been supporting the actions of your current EXCO on this webboard.

name more than one or two.

Our money wasn't good enough for ALPA. ALPA is no friend to regional airlines. How self destructive of Prater to testify against regional pilots who help pay his salary in the Colgan hearings. He commented on the training and quality of pilots at regional along with Jeff Skyles (you know, the other guy in the Hudson). Who are they to comment on that, they haven't been inside a regional airline in years if ever. But, I see we are often good enough if they need a ride home. He (Prater) should have walked into those hearings with the cases of irregularity reports of emergency situations handled professionally and safely by regional pilots on a daily basis. Instead he through us all under the bus.

Bottom line we were sold out early on by the Attorney running our local IBT. The IBT itself is who threw him out and so far the Trusteeship seems to be proving itself much more useful then the former. All of this comes at an incredible time for us. In the last six months as our local President had stated "In the past six months we have seen an amazing amount of change here. We have seen the Local enter Emergency Trusteeship and work its way through all of the various hearings and proceedings. We have had a complete change of representation from Business Agents to Attorneys, we have managed to buy or take ownership in/of three airlines, we have introduced a new airframe into our fleet, we have had multiple base openings, closures and attempted openings. We have seen the company use/misuse our displacement language nearly a half dozen different times even going as far as displacing pilots to the bases they had just displaced pilots from and had dozens of smaller yet equally important issues appear across the board. All the while still trying to work our way through Section 6 negotiations. We have established new committees while reorganizing others and I still have no idea what the remainder of the year is going to look like." Seems like enough to deal with for Volunteers, lets throw in some discontent and general disgust for morale.

Anyhow the problem at the Local IBT is out. The real fight will be internal. This is no longer the airline it was 6 years ago with 400 or 500 pilots trying to keep their little airline competitive. Now the majority of pilots here have less then 5 years with the company and the most are fed up with the lies and abuses and employee morale is hitting the floor. There will be a good contract or this place will burn.

It doesn't matter what Union name you put on your card, its the internal network of your local and the unity of your pilot group. The company has so far won the battle of divide and concur. Web boards like this continue to fester with the wrong messages and bickering from one group to the next.

You want to help raise the bar, stop spitting on your fellow pilot, offer something of value, offer some sort of support for the fight they are about to undertake, do not assist with the beating or take a pot shot every chance you get.

I don't always agree with what Toilet Duck has to say but I am certain we could use his enthusiasm and passion for defending things in a much better way then having him waste his time here defending the attacks. We need to channel those kind of emotions as ONE pilot group instead of yours verses mine.

The way the Midwest thing is going down stinks, but its done. Not one RAH pilot had the ability to make a single decision other than to quit his job at the only company in the industry that is currently doing anything but shrinking. Making that decision in a market where flight instructor jobs are hard to come by is far from easy from even the highest hill. Now put your families livelihood on the line with that. You say you'd not tolerate it and leave but would you, really.

The time for bickering is over. We need to join together as pilots not as individual groups, we need to lose the gang mentality and rebuild what government and big business has taken away from this career by pitting us against one another. When a young person asks a question on hear answer it honestly. If you choose to offer your opinion make sure it is known as only your opinion and we could all drop the sarcasm for a while. And or god sakes stop throwing fuel on a flame. I have been guilty of these things too and I am making a commitment to stop as it is not healthy for our collective futures, I invite you to join me.

It's a long enough road, lets walk it together!

Still groundhog,
how many similar e-mails or phone calls have you made to your EXCO or merger committee chairman prompting them to expedite the SLI?

You make some good points, but it is unrealistic to expect the Midwest pilots to support you. The Frontier and Midwest pilots have absolutely nothing to gain by merging with you. To expect them to just suck it up and move on with life is unrealistic and naive of you. The Midwest pilots have houses being foreclosed on, wives filing for divorce, and cars being repositioned all because of this merger. You guys will have to fight against the company without the Midwest pilot's support. First year probation pay at Frontier and Midwest is higher than your max first officer pay. They are taking a huge step back coming to your contract. I predict only about 60 Midwest pilots will ever work for Republic (the ones that end up captains with 20 years longevity). If Bedford makes them start at year 1 (been done before), then 0 Midwest pilots will work for Republic.

Well in that, case, we're all doomed. The IBT has zero power over Bedford and his team. And thanks to the RLA, neither do the pilots.

Plan B is starting to look real good.

Check my figures
 

RAH pilot group # roughly 2000

Roughly 1000 FO's

Assume all scaled out@37

Assume 75 hour guar.

2700/pilot/mo.

32400/year/pilot

RAH FO pilot payroll 2.7mil/month or 32.4mil./year

I doubt anyone expects former YX guys to just "suck it up" and move on. However, depending on the outcome of the SLI a majority of them could (should) end up with E-Jet CA positions worth 65K and up a year. Perhaps even back in MKE. By no means does that replace what has been destroyed; realistically, though, how many positions in other fields are available with anywhere near that income level with zero recent experience (I promise you if you have an engineering degree, for example, but have been flying jets for the past 15 years you're well out of the running for most positions).

If RAH pilots can convince the EXCO to work quickly towards a decent SLI, then you can get 300 plus experienced guys on the list, and with a chance of fairly quickly salvaging some semblance of their former lives. Or, they can stay away out of principle, continue to blame the RAH pilots instead of management, and leave the fight to someone else.

PS I agree there is a zero percent chance any former could, or should, accept a crappy SLI with a 23K per year FO job waiting. At that point you actually are better off at Home Depot. My 2 Cents only.

A couple of things to note. I am not looking for someone to suck anything up. I am not looking for anything but the brow beating to stop and for something constructive to start being displayed by pilots as a whole. You are right they have nothing to gain, but they have it all to loose. Don't think for one minute that the God Squad in Indy won't put e190' or 195's on the 318 runs and lease those planes or return them to put lower paid flight crews on the trips. Nobody is willing to fall on their sword for me so I am certainly not quitting my job in protest. When this all boils down if they want a seat at the table they'd better bring a dish or they'll find themselves out in the cold. I am not trying to be mean or spiteful, it's not that I have no feelings for what is happening to people I would call co workers no matter what airline they fly for or how superior they think they are flying at "Mainline". I am however in my opinion telling it how it is. They can either be involved in what this airline is going to become or simply sit it out and sideline quarterback with the rest of you.

And another thing, I was not addressing Midwest pilots to show support. That comment was for every pilot with every airline who looses if the pilot group at RAH does not make some serious headway in this next contract. You are not going to beat anyone into submission with this constant barrage of you stole my flying and crying about how your pay rate is $3 dollars an hour more than mine. When the contract we have now.. actually I am through defending a 6 year old contract, we need to move foward.

I am also not suggesting anyone to come to our contract as you suggest the Midwest pilots should. But again, they better get involved because they don't have the numbers to vote down something they don't like. They'll get stuck on this contract with the rest of us until this new one is ratified and we'd like their input on making it a better contract. Calling for arbitration may not have been the most productive thing. My understanding is that the arbitrator is the same one that did the original Shuttle arbitration, ask some of those guys how that worked out. Frankly without any aircraft to fly I am not sure why the Midwest pilots were part of the package and I am hoping the company does not pull what it had in the past and simply fire these folks.

Someone else made the statement about me sending emails or calls to EXCO about the SLI, I am guessing Seniority List Integration. I've made none, they know what needs done and don't need to expel another breath to answering the same questions. Trust me when I say they are aware. Apparently there is a magic ball at other, or at least your airline that gets things done in minutes days or even weeks. You can't get two pilots to agree on where to eat for lunch half the time, yet your going to get FOUR pilot groups to come to some sort of compromise on how they should move forward on their futures in a matter of weeks.

I only know what we are being told. All parties were asked to bring proposals, the only thing they brought was a call for arbitration. That means that now someone else is involved and that is going to be on their time line, and nobody else's.

As for the Midwest pilots who are having wives file for divorces, what a sorry relationship that must have been. Think of the peace you will have not living with someone that just wanted your lifestyle and your money. It is a pretty poor testament to a relationship when the loss of a job sends a spouse packing.

Not sure what you are getting at. As a 3rd yr FO I have not had a month under 85 hours yet. Yes the guarantee is 75. I'd have to call flame bait on the post though. It looks like you are just trying to start something, again.

PS: the BS BB Tag line is a joke, its not as if he's called any of us or cares about our opinions. He pukes in our food every chance he gets. Most of us would leave if we could but the greener grass is usually created by chunkier better puke. ;)

No one here wants to see a staple job of any kind. Which is the only way I see someone getting thrown to the bottom and ever seeing first year fo pay.

4 year captains are making 75K+ and if we can get them any sort of longevity it should be better then that. The other thing to consider is that the sooner we get this integration wrapped up the sooner we can put the resources back into getting this contract inked. We will see substantial pay increases along with quality of life issues. Thankfully a contract was not negotiated prior to all of this going down, we were approaching things as if we were a simple regional airline, not this Hybrid we have become.

Keep in mind it is not only our Exco that needs to move quickly toward a SLI, all FOUR parties need to move forward or nothing will happen.

Word is that the recent integration meeting which gave our people a chance to talk with all the other groups leaders went well. It seems the company has come to grips with the fact that all parties will be brought together as one which was not the original plan. It also gave them a chance to find out exactly what the company was telling these other groups, as usual there were inconsistencies.

It's a process. One that won't move fast enough for many but fighting all the way through it will not help it go any quicker.

Not FB at all in fact! I am beyond most of the angst and now I would love nothing more than to puke right in your CEO's pocketbook.

As I see it we have zero leverage with the current system and it is being used over and over to mgmt's advantage.

If there is a legal way to level the playing field then thats what we need to focus on. The tough part is that it involves sacrifice, fortitude, and cooperation. Things not always found in spades amongst our brethren.

Maybe we are reaching our breaking point, one can only hope.
Your company's leadership is driving the airline pilot profession bus straight into the toilet. Its affecting you all especially at the bottom end and I sense that even the legacy folks look at whats happening here and see the HUGE potential pitfalls like the further erosion of scope to 100 seats. It affects everyone.

I was trying to get a sense of what it costs to pay the bottom 1/2 of your list.

Is it worth some sacrifice money wise for a large number of us to:
1) restore at least a living wage to regional pilots in the USA?
2)Protect the jobs at the legacies from predators like BB and even their own mgmt?

Speaking for myself a resounding YES:
I will admit that I am passionate about the issue, but I will also say that I am pretty certain that I will not stand to gain personally from any favorable outcome in the smaller issue of the integration of these pilot groups. That is by choice.

So what would it take to "take it back"

A very large number of airline pilots to pledge and maybe donate up to 1% of their monthly income to pay pilots who have resigned their FO positions at company X. I would suggest a pledge, and if necessary an assessment lasting for a year just to provide an ample safety net if progress is not achieved.

The tough part will be convincing 1/2 or some large percentage of pilots to write that letter and be prepared to turn it in to regain the leverage that has been lost and force mgmt. to do something drastic in our favor.

I have left out thoughts/strategies that would come into play but most of you are smart enough to figure out what some of the likely outcomes are. Is it legal? Maybe not.

I have paid a lot of dues in my life and I do not have a problem doing so provided my union provides me some basic protections. Unfortunately our system of an association of separate locals has not worked well for us and its time we ALL step up to the plate.
We are only as good as our weakest link and I do not mean that to disparage anyone.

I am tired of hearing we have no power, leverage, unity. I am ready to do something and if its legal I will gladly promise and if necessary make the financial sacrifice to help regain some of what has been lost.

I realize that the likelihood of something like this actually happening is probably nil but we are going to have to start looking for ways to get around the constructs currently in place to level the field.

One thing for sure we all stand to gain if we can do this or something like it. Have we reached the point yet where we have the strength to take on something like this. I guess we all have to answer that one.

I wish I were partaking in consuming some fermented malt beverages on a sat. night but honestly I am not.

I agree YX. We need one union for every airline pilot. Not a bunch of rag tag locals running around under one national that is more worried about their well being than the pilots they represent.

One union is basically what it use to be like. Look around here and see how much people keep complaining that there are conflicts within ALPA because they represent both sides of the table.

Sounds more like you want a national seniority list YX. A little late in the game for that this go around.

You're bragging about working 85 hours/mo?

Not necessary, your part is a resignation letter typed and signed.

Alittle over the top... you think?. Can't believe you are a Midwest pilot.

A national seniority list will never happen. But something is needed in this industry to let a pilots experience have some value like the 1500 hr minimum to be a first officer.

Here is FAA law that would work like a National Seniority list. Pilots would still keep their company seniority number and bidding rights.

Example:

1500 min flight time for First Officer
5000 min flight time for a Class C license (eg. over 70,000 lbs max) for the Captain only
10000 min flight time for a Class B license (eg. over 140,000 lbs max) for the Captain only
15000 min flight time for Class A license (eg. over 200,000 lbs) for the Captain only



Just throwing it out as an idea.

yes its over the top, thats the whole point.

you are correct, no longer a midwest pilot, just as you are no longer.

I am prepared to write the check though.

what are you going to do?

Yea I'll get right on that. :rolleyes:

I will wait to see if the Republic pilots back-up their words on this webboard. If they work to undermine our legal rights in this integration then that's it.

1. Republic pilots undermined our contract negotiation. Saying... there is nothing we could do.
2. Republic pilots undermine the integration of Midwest pilots. Saying... we need to wait for Frontier.
3. Republic pilots delay, drag out, or try to undermine our legal rights in the merged compnay.

That's strike three. I will write the check and work to see that Republic pilots become the leper colony of aviation.

It's not about the job, a Republic job may not be worth the problem.

It's about the actions of this labor union

Go big or go home

Enjoy your career at Republic Airways:D

Can BB replace 50% of his pilots in short order, if the answer is yes then we are in more trouble than I thought.

Please dont confuse what a couple of keyboard warriors say here with what is really occurring between these groups. I'm afraid you will be let down very quickly.

I think these RH guys need to be brought "up" and fast. I am willing to invest my own money to help them help themselves. I could care less about how the integration works out. What would it take to get BB off his high horse. Its all about the money or the loss of it.

I don't agree/understand your statement in bold. It accomplishes nothing

So are we gonnna put this in writing? PM me for the name and address you can make the checks out to.

Can someone produce a copy of the check that the RAH pilots wrote to buy Midwest?

Yeah...didn't think so.

Your gripe is with the shareholders and the management. Yet a few of you seem hell bent on hosing down with warm used beer water THE VERY pilots that could support you and get you back in the seat.

The same guys who got hosed before by Gene Sowell and his people; and have new, stronger support to get a better contract. They seem to be mvoving in the right direction and trying to do good for all. But that ain't good enough.

Do you think you are the first people who have been dumped on by management? Can you say Continental? Eastern? Frontier? (the original one?) Western? PanAm? National?

Wake up. And quit living on bile before it kills you.

I've got 5 uniforms in my closet. Three airlines tanked. At one, Eastern, we saw our "brothers," take our jobs and airplanes with joy. 4500 pilot families lost everything. We had ONE airline...United...step up. The others took the planes and routes and said, "sorry."

RAH may well have some knobs flying for them. So did you. So does everyone.

They also have people who really want to help you and all you want to do (some of you) is leave a big steamin' in their mess kits.

And how's that gonna motivate them to help you?

Can anyone -- someone -- please tell me what they expect the RAH pilots to do right now. Do you want them to quit their jobs, perform an illegal job action, what. Get off their backs. This just as easily could have been you. None of them signed up for this crap, and few of them support it. I have been down and out to where I was not sure if I would be in my house the next month. Never -- did I blame those that could not help the situation and nothing to do with creating it. I may not have liked them sitting in the seat I used to sit in, but they were not the ones that took me out the seat.

The companies legally merged. TPG has a seat on the Republic board and owns part of the company.

Even if its a flat out purchase, Midwest pilots have a legal right to be integrated so we can fly Midwest painted aircraft, flying Midwest passengers, to Midwest destinations. Move the integration process ahead or write a LOA for Midwest pilots to start training until a merged seniority list is finalized.

It's the FAIR thing to do.

Republic is moving your pilots into Midwest flying because some CRJ aircraft are being retired. At the same time, B717 are being retired and our pilots are going to the unemployment line.

Republics EXCO is delaying integration so Republic pilots can take over all the Midwest flying.

This is not about the actions of Midwest management or BB... the purchase agreement was signed in June. SWA/Frontier, Delta/Northwest had integration talks before the purchase agreements was signed.

Why not Republic/Midwest? You want all the Midwest flying and have worked/delayed/denied for a year to undermine our pilot group.


Call, Email, Write the Republic EXCO... Stop the lock-out of Midwest pilots.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Midwest pilots offered to fly the 170's, when Republic arrived on to the scene (initially)? Wouldn't that have been a reason to start the negotiations (integration) before the Frontier deal was on the radar scope? Or did this all happen together - if so, wouldn't it have been a logical step for the Republic guys to try to integrate everyone that had a 'dog in the fight'?

Was it obvious that the 717's were going away, or was that a surprise on the YX side of the house? I'm asking, 'cause I'm trying to understand the WHOLE situation.

Midwest pilots were told in negotiations "take it or leave it" to a new contract for E170s and E190s. The management tried to whip-saw us against the Republic pilots contract by offering the 51-78 rate for both E170 and E190 flying. Management was trying to get a new industry low wage for the E190, lower than Republic.

When Midwest pilots filed for federal mediation and management knew they were not going to be able to use Midwest pilots to lower the E190 pay scale.

We knew the B717 were going to be retired in May-June 2008. TPG had to have a current production aircraft to grow and we were told it was the E190. Maintenance and Flight Standards/Training started to write the manuals after training at JetBlue.

Ahhh, okay, so how is this different for the Republic guys who are negotiating a E-190 pay rate? Won't they be able to file for federal mediation and negotiate a new 190 pay-scale? By looking at APC, I would hope that they would be able to get something within reason of the Frontier Airbus/Midwest 717/JetBlue 190 rate for their new 190 aircraft.

I guess I'm still not sure why some Midwest pilots are reluctant to fly the E-190, if the pay is being negotiated for the better? Like I said before, I'm not trying to cause anyone harm, just trying to understand the big picture.

Good luck to everyone involved in this web-of-a-mess!!

Midwest guys would happily fly the E190 (or the E170), but the Republic EXCO is locking-out our pilot group by delaying integration.

Republic EXCO says we need to wait to integrate Midwest/Republic/Frontier pilots all at once. The problem is he didn't ask for a LOA to help Midwest pilots, because that would have put it in BB hands and they want all the flying.

The Republic EXCO is locking-out Midwest pilots

Why should the EXCO help you out when I believe Republic still has pilots on the street which is the EXCO's responsibility before other groups? When you are one big disgruntled family it will be different. May I suggest in the future: Dave Ramsey Homepage - daveramsey.com Get your house in order for the lean times during the good times, less stress and anger for things you can control.

Because active Midwest pilots have legal rights to this flying.

You can delay things, but in the end it will only divided the final pilot group and help BB. Midwest pilots will have to be given there jobs in the end.

The best Republic will get is relative position integration and furloughed Republic pilots are not going to be raised up the seniority list.

I am totally biased, but I still can't identify what legal right YX has to the flying.

The YX/RAH transaction is similiar to the ATA/SWA transaction, in my opinion. One could even argue that ATA was in a stronger financial position than YX before ATA ceased operations.

The big difference between the two is that SWA didn't change their name to ATA after they acquired the ATA assets. Everyone one of ATA's pilots was on the street.

RAH purcashed the YX certificate, entitling themselves to further exploit the YX/F9/RAH/etc codeshare. At least in this case some of the YX pilot group will be integrated in some manner yet to be determined.

I am very sorry to see what has happened to Midwest, and find myself looking over my shoulder from time to time thinking that my job may be next. If the RAH EXCO did anything that benefited the YX guys at the expense of the furloughed IBT guys they would be slapped with a DFR lawsuit in a hearbeat similiar to the way the Westies sued USAPA for DFR.

The IBT is going to represent the IBT.
FAPA is going to represent FAPA.
And ALPA is going to represent ALPA.
I think it is a ridiculous process and our "profession" is a pathetic joke when it comes to solidarity and trade unionism, but it is what it is.

I put money on the fact that the IBT is gone by this time next year. Hopefully we get an effective, adaptive, and productive independent organization like FAPA but that too remains to be seen.

Is there any legal precedent or example in the history of aviation where a pilot group with no airframes has been acquired and then fenced off their previous routes using the airframes of the acquiring entity?

I agree that the remaining active YX pilots on the date of acquisition have rights, but I just don't see how the flying in and out of MKE is anyone's but RAH's.

I think SWA bought the assets of ATA. Republic legally merged Midwest and Republic.

TPG is holding stock and a board position at Republic.

It's not completely the idea of "whose" flying it is. It is more the idea of where did the flying come from. 14 months ago Midwest was flying 37 B-717s/MD-80s.Much of that flying was transferred to another operator in some sort of back door arrangement.The then majority owner of Midwest(TPG) still sits on the RAH board.It has all the appearance of being a way to rewind the clock on pilot longevity pay.I don't think RAH management cares who flys the aircraft. They just want it done as cheaply as possible, which means with their contract and with the most junior longevity pilots they can get.
The Midwest pilot group lost the battle on pay and work rules with the sale. So it goes. Now the hope is that some will get to at least keep flying with some sort of integration proceedure.Morally,to my way of thinking, it is only logical that any flying hours gained from the purchase of Midwest should only be operated by the Midwest pilot group. (this is not to say Milwaukee /Midwest flying, but rather an equivalent number of hours that Bedford added to his flying by his purchase of Midwest and their decision to purge the Douglas fleet)
Some thoughts as to Southwest/ATA. Just cause they did it doesn't make it right. Southwest did an even worse screwing to the Muse boys back in 87. Don't you think at some point all of this has to stop? The Teamsters have a golden opportunity here to make every carrier want to be a part of them. Imagine...a Teamster national senority list as part of every Teamster contract. A Teamster merger policy carved in stone..not marshmellow. A real chance to undo the damage that any merger does future cockpit harmony with a national policy that everyone knows beforehand. Imagine...maybe you will join us?

I agree with pretty much every letter of that post, except for the backroom deal theme. Unfortunately, the Teamsters are not the party to carry the torch you speak of. They view aviation as a revenue center for the rest of the teamster enterprise. When you think about ANY positive change in our industry over the last century (work rules, rest regs, jumpseat, accident investigation, FOQA, ASAP, etc) the Teamsters have been totally vacant.

With that being said, maybe it is time for an original integration mechanism.

Frontier guys seem to feel different.

So if our rates for those planes suck (they do), and you could have flown these planes as your own for slightly better rates...the question I have is...why the hell didn't you?

Then this whole mess could have been avoided. Sure, you'd be making less money than you are now....but it's a hell of a lot more than you'd be making here or on furlough.

Ever hear of the policy of not negotiating with terrorist?

It's not a hell of a lot more money than on furlough. It was exactly RAH rates not slightly higher.