Since there are sooooo many folks currently employed as an FO who DO NOT have an ATP and HR 3371 looking like it will pass, I thought I would ask.....

Can one earn an ATP during a PC while acting as SIC? Or must one be acting as PIC?


The closest reg I can find is in 61.43

(5) Demonstrate single-pilot competence if the aircraft is type certificated for single-pilot operations.

(b) If an applicant does not demonstrate single pilot proficiency, as required in paragraph (a)(5) of this section, a limitation of “Second in Command Required” will be placed on the applicant's airman certificate. The limitation may be removed if the applicant passes the appropriate practical test by demonstrating single-pilot competency in the aircraft in which single-pilot privileges are sought.

But it only seems to address aircraft like the 1900 that can be flown single or dual pilot.

Please cite references to support your replies.

 

I think we should have an FAA frozen ATP. Kinda like the JAA/CAA. The trigger to it becoming unfrozen could be the 1500 flight time requirement.

 

61.157(e)(2) as well as the ATP PTS describes the tasks required for an ATP rating, but ultimately it would be dependent on modification & approval of each airline's 121 training program.

 

We used to have a frozen ATP but it was based on age after you met all the other requirements.
Be careful what you ask for because such a time frozen ATP could come about but you might just have to start taking the JAA/EASA type exams that take 2 yrs to study/pass.

Would you rather spend 2 yrs studying or 2 yrs gaining the actual real world experience?

 

Okay, the way I read 61.159, you can already get your ATP with less than 1500 if you meet all other requirements (500PIC, 100night,75instr., etc). You get an ICAO restricted ATP (basically can't fly international as PIC). You can substitute 50% SIC time for time required and get the restriction lifted once you meet all other thresholds (FAR 61.159(c & d)).

Am I right? Any FAR gurus out there?

 

It's 500 XC, the PIC requirement is 250.... and before people go getting all excited about the section that says they can do this:
That is for freshly upgraded Captains doing their IOE with an IOE instructor to be able to log the time as PIC so the company can get them off the Baby Captain list ASAP and save the airline money.... that way their 25 hours of IOE under the supervision of the IOE Instructor counts towards the 100 hours so they are no longer a restricted Captain.
FO, as SIC are not acting as, or performing the duties of PIC... Are FO's signing the release; no. Story over.

 

Mason, where is your proof on this, or is this what you were told, or interpreted on your own. Because I have been told something different by local FSDO. I really think their may be some differing opinion between FSDO and POI's, but I know there are guys out there with ATP's that had less than 250PIC but a crapload of SIC time when they went and recieved their ATP.

 

Not really...
61.159(d)(1) still requires 1500 hours. For example, you got hired with 700TT and you accumulated 800 SIC to give you a total of 1500TT. You can take ATP ride in this example but will have PIC ICAO limitation. Because of 61.159(d)(2) you cut 800 SIC in half and add that half (400 SIC) to your first 700TT you get a total of 1100TT. In order to get ICAO PIC limitation removed 61.159(d)(2) specifies that you need 1200 flight time in that combination when using half SIC time. That would require you to fly another 200 SIC and bring your total time to 1700 hours before you can get restriction removed.

 

This is one way which that reg can be applied.

But SIC's can also use it to accumulate time which counts toward ATP PIC requirements, as long as everyone agrees that they are allowed to practice being the PIC under the supervision of the actual PIC (at an airline you would need formal permission from the chain of command IMO). Very similar to being on IOE. The time is NOT loggable as PIC of any sort however, it is simply SIC which can be applied to the ATP requirements.

 

You cannot "earn" an ATP while acting as SIC...an ATP certificate is like any other cert, and you earn it the same way. To earn the ATP you need to meet the requirements of part 61.15X, fill out an 8710, and take a checkride. Anyone can take this checkride if they meet the requirements, you do not even have to work for an airline or be a professional pilot.

You could do it out in town in a seminole with a local DPE, or your airline could give you an ATP checkride in a level D sim. It would be easy for the airline, since the ATP checkride is little more than an airline PC...it could be done on your regularly schedule PC with a company DPE. It all depends on your company as to whether they will go to the trouble or make you blow $3K out in town.

The bill says YOU have to have an ATP...it does not say the airline has to provide it.

But I wouldn't worry just yet...wait and see what the senate version of the bill looks like, and how they reconcile that with the house version.