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Originally Posted by sweptback
(Post 707005)
I'm pretty sure 136 is correct, 156 is most definitely not.
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So the new adjusted total with Alaska, CAL, UAL, Comair, Mesaba, Mesa & Piedmont corrected = 7396 Furloughed Pilots. |
New Furloughed List
Alaska - 106
American - 1979 CAL - 174 UAL - 1,341 USair - 227 Air Cargo Carriers - 1 ABX - 254 AirNEt Cargo - 40 Arrow Cargo - 30 Atlas Cargo - 62 Centurion Cargo - 5 Empire Cargo - 4 Kalitta - 130 Key Lime -4 Omni - 40 Ryan Air - 36 Southern Air - 71 Tradewinds - 92 World - 34 Xtra - 15 Amr Eagle - 71 ASA - 136 Air Wisky - 22 Comair - 319 Express Jet - 335 Frontier - 56 Gulfstream - 50 Horizon - 84 Island Air - 10 Mesa - 176 Mesaba - 79 Midwest - 400 Penair - 15 PSA - 55 RAH - 104 Piedmont - 71 Spirit - 78 Sun Country 36 Trans States - 158 USA 3000 - 11 Netjets - 500 Total = 7396 Furloughed Pilots |
This is a good list to keep updated. Thanks for the effort. On a side note I think Netjets is 495
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Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
(Post 707023)
This is a good list to keep updated. Thanks for the effort. On a side note I think Netjets is 495
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Originally Posted by NoHandHold
(Post 707022)
Alaska - 106
American - 1979 CAL - 174 UAL - 1,341 USair - 227 Air Cargo Carriers - 1 ABX - 254 AirNEt Cargo - 40 Arrow Cargo - 30 Atlas Cargo - 62 Centurion Cargo - 5 Empire Cargo - 4 Kalitta - 130 Key Lime -4 Omni - 40 Ryan Air - 36 Southern Air - 71 Tradewinds - 92 World - 34 Xtra - 15 Amr Eagle - 71 ASA - 136 Air Wisky - 22 Comair - 337 Express Jet - 335 Frontier - 56 Gulfstream - 50 Horizon - 84 Island Air - 10 Mesa - 176 Mesaba - 79 Midwest - 400 Penair - 15 PSA - 55 RAH - 104 Piedmont - 71 Spirit - 78 Sun Country 36 Trans States - 158 USA 3000 - 11 Netjets - 495 Total = 7409 Furloughed Pilots Citation Shares 85 Flexjet 85 Flight Options 216 Planesense 5 XO Jet 23 Total = 7830 Furloughed Pilots That doesn't count the pilots "on the street" from their airlines shutting the doors. |
Originally Posted by Diver Driver
(Post 706989)
Comair is at 319 furloughed right now with more to come through January.
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The question is how many of these people have gone on to other jobs. I know a few people who were furloughed early on at places like Comair and are now at Compass, Lynx, Colgan etc. I know it's not many, but I'm guessing maybe 5-10% of the total number, maybe less. Add on top of that people that are fed up with airlines all together and will never take a recall. I know a lot of people have moved on with ATC, sales, or other jobs.
I'm just saying this number doesn't really mean much. There are a s*&t load of people furloughed right now. That's all we need to know... |
Got ATA in there?
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Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 707047)
Got ATA in there?
pilots "on the street" from their airlines shutting the doors. |
Originally Posted by NoHandHold
(Post 706983)
Keep your doom and gloom for another forum, stay on topic here please.
Besides.....your lack of faith in the american people is unsettling. |
The total pilots on the street is over 9000. Someone did the math in another forum and this was maybe 2 months ago so it does not include the latest updates. There were roughly 1500 corporate and charter pilots on the street nationwide, and that number has grown as well since someone last did the math.
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Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
(Post 706988)
Maybe you need to read about something called "The Great Depression". I don't see any huge tent city yet.
Tent cities rise across the country - Life- msnbc.com |
Astar will have about 350 furloughed on March 6th, 2010. We've already been notified.
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I've seen this mentioned before, but I think it bears repeating. Those retirement numbers assume no growth in the industry and no early retirements. Remember, the furloughs and capacity reductions we saw this past year were based on financial disaster. That hasn't happened and it's likely not to happen.
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Originally Posted by NoHandHold
(Post 707020)
Thank you. Also CAL is 174 not the 400 I thought it was.
So the new adjusted total with Alaska, CAL, UAL, Comair, Mesaba, Mesa & Piedmont corrected = 7396 Furloughed Pilots. |
Originally Posted by Diver Driver
(Post 706989)
Comair is at 319 furloughed right now with more to come through January.
Originally Posted by Spoilers
(Post 707035)
Actually, Comair is at 337. We had 18 more hit the street Nov. 1.
And I'm sure there won't be many sick calls over Christmas, either. |
AirTran
Doesn't the Tranny have some folks out on the street?
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Originally Posted by NoHandHold
(Post 706933)
Total number of retirements from DAL, CAL, UAL, & AMR by year....
These numbers DO NOT INCLUDE UsAir, FedEx, UPS, Alaska, Southwest, etc..... 2009- 6 2010- 13 2011- 15 2012- 299 2013- 695 2014- 892 2015- 939 2016- 964 2017- 1110 2018- 1258 2019- 1449 2020- 1653 2021- 1957 2022- 2016 2023- 2108 2024- 2047 2025- 2081 2026- 2011 2027- 1780 2028- 1767 2029- 1654 2030- 1240 2031- 975 Total = 28929 |
What exactly are your qualifications as far as predicting the end??
Originally Posted by LastTraintoMEM
(Post 707073)
I have total faith in the American people (with a capitol "A" thank you), but I have absolutely NO faith in the Federal Government who is totality screwing this nation along with our careers. The aviation business is in lock step with the health of the economy. This subject is totally on topic. Get your head out of the sand and stop worrying about who is furloughing and for how long, and start studying the cause of the furloughs.
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Originally Posted by NERD
(Post 707181)
What exactly are your qualifications as far as predicting the end??
Second: I didn't know I was applying for a job that required me to be qualified to express my view. Third: I hope I am wrong! I really do, and please feel free to prove me wrong. Don't just shoot the messenger, shoot my argument. Making snide comments towards me and my credibility is a poor argument for your case. I know we don't want to hear all our training, investment and dreams are for naught, but be realistic. Get a job ANYWHERE, and keep looking for a flying job. (That is what I am doing). There are no predictions, just numbers. Like I said before, numbers don't lie! |
Wow. This is sad. What a waste. I'm sure at least half of these "qualified jobs" would be saved if RAH pilots were allowed to fly these planes for $23 an hour. Netjets FO pay rates of $60+ an hour was clearly excessive. I mean, for 5 seater jets?? We fly 100 seaters for much less!! What a wasted opportunity..
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My ultimate point folks is that in 3-4 years there will be a whirlwind of movement, this stuff is not hard to figure out. It is cyclical, the next upturn/hiring boom is around the corner. Just be patient.
Originally Posted by hom307
(Post 707162)
hey, do you have numbers for UsAir, FedEx, UPS, Alaska, Southwest, etc?
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No wonder this country is going downhill look at all this doomsday crap going on. We will recover, people will start flying again and yes the Goverment is spending tons of money, but the last administration wasnt exactly thrifty with our money either. If we would stop watching the 24 hour news channels I guarantee we would see a significant improvement in our economy. Its not all bad either, stocks are cheap and housing is finally down to reasonable level were people can actually afford a house without going broke. As for all this worry of being laid off I have been worrying about it for the last 2 years and am sick of it, I have quit worrying about it and am enjoying what I have right now. Good luck to all those laid off, I may be one of you tommorow.
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Originally Posted by Spoilers
(Post 707035)
Actually, Comair is at 337. We had 18 more hit the street Nov. 1.
Thanks, I stand corrected. Was going off my last ALPA email.. lol |
Every Year
Every year something like 8500 to 10,000 new commercial pilots are minted in the US. The military is also collectively producing something like 1500 new pilots per year. There is already a massive backlog of pilots who have been waiting to get recalled since 9-11. The human mass of experienced pilots is backing up big time.
It might be true that eventually retirements could reach 2000 per year but even at its height it is still woefully short of how many pilots that are building up daily awaiting a good job. When hiring does resume someone is going to get hired but it does not really mean that anyone can count on it being them. It will be a drag out fist fight where seasoned regional captains have to stand in line behind space shuttle captains, the chief pilots son and blue angles. 2000 new hires per year after nearly two decades of waiting is not much at all. The bottom line is that it is still a long shot. Skyhigh |
What's wrong with 24/7 news service? Is there any other way to form an "educated" opinion?
Originally Posted by lear 31 pilot
(Post 707283)
No wonder this country is going downhill look at all this doomsday crap going on. We will recover, people will start flying again and yes the Goverment is spending tons of money, but the last administration wasnt exactly thrifty with our money either. If we would stop watching the 24 hour news channels I guarantee we would see a significant improvement in our economy. Its not all bad either, stocks are cheap and housing is finally down to reasonable level were people can actually afford a house without going broke. As for all this worry of being laid off I have been worrying about it for the last 2 years and am sick of it, I have quit worrying about it and am enjoying what I have right now. Good luck to all those laid off, I may be one of you tommorow.
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"Some of the smaller cargo carriers listed might not be subject to the Age 65 rule."
Why would't a 121 carrier be subject to 121 rules? And Atlas is down to about 45 pilots furloughed. A bunch more F/Es. |
Originally Posted by newarkblows
(Post 706926)
500 more qualified pilots are soon to be furloughed from NetJets. There has to be somewhere around 5000 pilots collectively on the street that all have thousands of hours of experience. I dont care what anyone says about a pilot shortage.... no one is going anywhere soon. Get comfy where you are and if you are flight instructing or building piston time this is the time to re-evaluate your career.
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Originally Posted by NoHandHold
(Post 706983)
Besides.....your lack of faith in the american people is unsettling.
http://www.forumsextreme.com/images/...k_of_Faith.jpg |
Originally Posted by exwaterski
(Post 707660)
Lollllllll, some people have no faith in Americans and the force we possess. Even our fellow citizens seek to destroy us sometimes, but i know that we are a great people and that we WILL pull ourselves outta this rut that we are in. |
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 707321)
Every year something like 8500 to 10,000 new commercial pilots are minted in the US. The military is also collectively producing something like 1500 new pilots per year. There is already a massive backlog of pilots who have been waiting to get recalled since 9-11. The human mass of experienced pilots is backing up big time.
It might be true that eventually retirements could reach 2000 per year but even at its height it is still woefully short of how many pilots that are building up daily awaiting a good job. When hiring does resume someone is going to get hired but it does not really mean that anyone can count on it being them. It will be a drag out fist fight where seasoned regional captains have to stand in line behind space shuttle captains, the chief pilots son and blue angles. 2000 new hires per year after nearly two decades of waiting is not much at all. The bottom line is that it is still a long shot. Skyhigh Did you read that those numbers ONLY INCLUDE 4 MAJOR CARRIERS??? Your argument is based off of incomplete information, retirements will reach 4000 a year at the very least. Just because this industry was ugly to you and now you are happy outside of it, does not mean that things will never turn around. You guys are unbelievable, many of you believe this industry will be in the toilet for another 10 years. That is such an irrational argument it almost sounds like comedy. THIS STUFF IS CYCLICAL, EVEN A CHILD UNDERSTANDS THE CONCEPT OF NIGHT AND DAY. |
Things change
Originally Posted by NoHandHold
(Post 707701)
Eventually reach 2000 pilots a year???
Did you read that those numbers ONLY INCLUDE 4 MAJOR CARRIERS??? Your argument is based off of incomplete information, retirements will reach 4000 a year at the very least. Just because this industry was ugly to you and now you are happy outside of it, does not mean that things will never turn around. You guys are unbelievable, many of you believe this industry will be in the toilet for another 10 years. That is such an irrational argument it almost sounds like comedy. THIS STUFF IS CYCLICAL, EVEN A CHILD UNDERSTANDS THE CONCEPT OF NIGHT AND DAY. First of all things change. You are counting your chickens before they are hatched. The classic legacy airline is under threat. Air travel has seen its heyday. Whos to say that most of those companies will even be around 10 to 20 years from now? The industry could turn itself over several times before then and regionals could be flying 757's at CRJ wages. The bottom line is how those numbers directly effect you. It is possible that a few thousand pilots per year could get hired but will it be any of us that gets those jobs? Who is to say that future growth will be in the legacies? Over the last decade LLC's and regionals are taking over. The legacies have been in full retreat. Free skies will begin to effect the future by then. Whose to say that a contracted pilot from India will not get the job? Will the jobs even be worth having by then? I have seen most of my generation passed over in favor of younger people who are more flexible and can work for less. Who is to say that you will not be the next generation to get passed over? A lot needs to be considered before trying to project into the future. Optimism is one thing but this is aviation. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. Skyhigh |
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 707736)
First of all things change. You are counting your chickens before they are hatched. The classic legacy airline is under threat. Air travel has seen its heyday. Whos to say that most of those companies will even be around 10 to 20 years from now?
The industry could turn itself over several times before then and regionals could be flying 757's at CRJ wages. The bottom line is how those numbers directly effect you. It is possible that a few thousand pilots per year could get hired but will it be any of us that gets those jobs? Who is to say that future growth will be in the legacies? Over the last decade LLC's and regionals are taking over. The legacies have been in full retreat. Free skies will begin to effect the future by then. Whose to say that a contracted pilot from India will not get the job? Will the jobs even be worth having by then? I have seen most of my generation passed over in favor of younger people who are more flexible and can work for less. Who is to say that you will not be the next generation to get passed over? A lot needs to be considered before trying to project into the future. Optimism is one thing but this is aviation. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. Skyhigh There is no stopping age 65, all these other wild theories and changes may happen, but fact is (and I stress the word fact) an entire generation is getting ready to retire. |
NoHandHold,
Your optimism is impressive… the force is strong with this one :D |
Originally Posted by cargo hopeful
(Post 707765)
NoHandHold,
Your optimism is impressive… the force is strong with this one :D |
If this is going to have any meaning than we need to consider not just the pilots on furlough, but all commercial pilots who are qualified to fly 121 (actually competitive, not 200 hours and a wet commercial). In addition to the furloughs we need to include all of the part 91 and 135 guys who've lost jobs and all of the guys from
ATA Skyway Aloha and all of the other operators that have shut down in the past year. All of a sudden the number of pilots on the street starts looking pretty big. But then again...I'm just a doom and gloom, I-Pod listening, backpack wearing, spikey haired, RAH scumbag...so what do I know (actually the only true parts are that I work for RAH and own an IPOD...but I figured I'd save you the time of having to type out your rebuttal XJTR.) |
Originally Posted by xjtr
(Post 707262)
Wow. This is sad. What a waste. I'm sure at least half of these "qualified jobs" would be saved if RAH pilots were allowed to fly these planes for $23 an hour. Netjets FO pay rates of $60+ an hour was clearly excessive. I mean, for 5 seater jets?? We fly 100 seaters for much less!! What a wasted opportunity..
To entertain your pointlessness....what does the number of seats have to do with anything? Not every operation's revenue is dependent on the number of seats. What about freighters? What about a GVI captain? Do you think that a Beech 1900 captain should make more just because there are more seats?:rolleyes: What about the thing called the market? You have much to learn about the industry. Forget your sense of entitlement. The ONLY reason that you fly 100 seaters for "much less" is because you either accepted the job or your union voted to be paid "much less". It is nobody's fault but yours and/or your union. Stop trying to lower the bar by bringing others down and bring yourself up. That is the cold truth sonny. |
N7
Originally Posted by Emb170man
(Post 707791)
If this is going to have any meaning than we need to consider not just the pilots on furlough, but all commercial pilots who are qualified to fly 121 (actually competitive, not 200 hours and a wet commercial). In addition to the furloughs we need to include all of the part 91 and 135 guys who've lost jobs and all of the guys from
ATA Skyway Aloha and all of the other operators that have shut down in the past year. All of a sudden the number of pilots on the street starts looking pretty big. But then again...I'm just a doom and gloom, I-Pod listening, backpack wearing, spikey haired, RAH scumbag...so what do I know (actually the only true parts are that I work for RAH and own an IPOD...but I figured I'd save you the time of having to type out your rebuttal XJTR.) Skyhigh |
if you think you will become "well educated" from watching the news then you are probably too dumb to think for yourself or develop a truly educated opinion. The news media is so politically corrupted and biased that you have to take everything said with a grain of salt.
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