I agree. It is pure speculation to suppose what would've become of MidWest without RAH and I don't have ill will toward Republic's pilot group. My only point was that some degree of sensitivity would be appreciated from the pilot group benefiting from this crummy situation to the guys getting hosed. For the record, I work for neither company so maybe my opinion here isn't even appreciated ;)

What exactly do you disagree with? The fact that there should be civility in the "flight deck"? Or would you rather conduct WWE amongst pilot groups?

Does anyone have an idea of what their minumums will be once they begin hiring?

The question is what are your personal minimums as far as work conditions and pay?

I'm sitting just under 1300 TT and am close to meeting all Part 135 minimums. I'm despirately trying to build some multi time so I imagine I have quite a lot less time than most others here. Quite frankly, I'd be happy starting at 23/hr with the hope of making much more in the future. I know the work will suck for quite a while and I'll be living on mac & cheese also...but I have too much invested to give up now.

Nothing personal Husker but you really summed this whole business up quite nicely.

I submit this post as "Exhibit A"... :(

I should have been a dentist.

With fuel prices what they are, they could very well be operating 25 717s. They could have saved a ton of money by not hiring Seabury but the whole point of the exercise was to seal the deal for low pay on 100 seat jets and flush a bunch of longevity to boot. No one can convince me that there wasn't a great deal of cooperation between these groups. ( and I don't mean the RAH pilots. They're not that smart, they're just sheep)

Hell...I'll be constructive. Instead of setting your sights on that amazing shiny jet job (:rolleyes:), do stuff other people usually don't want to do. Here's a good game plan:

1. Get ATP mins
2. Come to Cape Air and fly a Cessna 402 for $45,000-$50,000 first year
3. ???
4. Don't feel like a tool for flying an E190 for $23/hour, no matter how big and shiny it is. I'd quit aviation before doing that. Don't believe me? Ask iPilot.

I'm forwarding this to Stepford. PM me your resume and I'll see to it that it goes to the top of the stack!

And have your base changed every 6 months. A friend works there, and I wouldn't mind working there, except for the fact he has had 5 different bases in 2 years.

You are a Republic pilot, right?

I see things alittle different. The "Branded" operation will be flying A320 and E190 just like JetBlue... a low cost carrier. Midwest pilots will fight for wages and benefits equal to JetBlue and AirTran. It's not a 50% pay cut.

That's why Rev. BB wants to keep Midwest pilots on furlough. He loves recalling 600 hr pilots because they just want to fly airplanes.

Midwest pilots will fight for industry average wages, work rules, benefits and retirement. The day of... I just want to fly airplanes is over.

I've held 3 separate bases with this company, and each I could have held year-round. Each change was voluntary. I was first based in SJU, then bid out to a north country outstation to get back to the mainland. After 5 months of working too hard, I bid out to a nice easy line elsewhere. Now I work half the month and am home for lunch everyday. I'm only about a quarter of the way up the seniority list, so I'm not super senior. I just bid to bases that aren't very popular. If you want to hold BOS or HYA specifically, then yeah, you're going to get bumped around.

I'll admit that what we have isn't optimal, but it's certainly more optimal than a 99-seat jet for $23/hour. Sure, those same guys sometimes turn their noses up at you for flying a 402, but I've got about 25,000 more reasons why I don't care.

Plus flying a 402 puts hair on your chest. Just think of the tales of excitement and wonder NightIP will be able to bestow upon his FO's one day.

Actually that sounds awful, forget I even said that.... :rolleyes:

Look, I'm not going to spoon-feed you. Read the posts again. Pay particular attention to the bold type and the words surrounded by quotation marks.

I can't see RAH hiring in the next year. BB likes to run his airlines very lean. alot depends on how many YX guys hang around after SLI. Go fly freight for a few years, and have some fun.

I think I hear mom calling from upstairs... its time to brush your hair and drink your milk, so you can grow up and become a big boy pilot!

And the end is near... This is BB's poster boy.

he probably hasnt been around these boards long enough to know that was not exactly a great thing to say, especially on a thread like this.

I can't think of too many 190 guys who would turn up their noses at a 402; my time flying one was way more fun! That having been said, what was the starting pay at Comair before your furlough? If RAH gets a ratifies a crappy contract this time around, then fine, open season. Until then ninety nine percent of you tough guys just sound ignorant.

Husker, stop and think about this for a minute.

You will eventually get your multi time, your jet time, your PIC time. Naturally, you'll want to get paid well for your skill set and experience, right? OK, you're thinking like a pilot so far.

Now, start thinking like a manager.

So Husker is drooling over a big shiny jet right now and is perfectly happy to fly it for $23/hour. Why should we pay experienced guys any more money when Husker is willing to fly it for $23/hour?

We are handicapped by unions AND management. Look up the term whipsaw and you'll see what the airline managements have excelled at in the last several years, and the unions allowed it through the seniority system concept.

The question you have to ask yourself is this: how many times are you willing to start over at $23/hour because I assure you, chances are that you'll have to do it several times.

There comes the time when you stop building flight time, and are looking for a true career position, and yet you'll be handicapped by younger Huskers coming in behind you willing to fly for $23/hour. It's a circle that somehow has to be broken if this is to become a viable profession in the US.

Just a food for thought, bud...

This just keeps getting uglier and uglier. This new airline smells just like US Airways. :(

I find it funny that people are all over husker. I bet most of you were in the same position he was in, during the hiring boom, the only difference is you guys took the job. Dont forget where you came from. Most of you can hide behind your screen names though. Im just as guilty.

For the record I have absolutely nothing bad to say about you JetBlue guys. Great pilot group with solid pay rates from what I've seen. :) The thing that drives me up the wall is that there is a pilot group who is right now flying the E190 for a really lowball rate. I really honestly hope beyond hope that they're able to get a new contract ratified with competitive pay rates. If they do, great, I'll probably even apply. But until then...

The thing that drives me up the wall is that I don't want to fly 402s for a career. I'd love to get back into a jet, but I simply can't justify taking the pay and QOL cut to do it. It's just so unbelievably wrong that I'd take a pay cut to go from a 9-passenger piston twin to an 89,000+ lb jet; it makes me outright angry, in fact. My career isn't progressing how I'd like it because there are 10 guys lined up ready to say "sir, yes sir!" when even 1 of us decline to work for those wages.

And yes, I was at XJT previously. I'd go back, only because I'd go back at second year pay, which is plenty livable. I did my time on first year poverty wages and learned my lesson. No more. This job just isn't worth that.

I, along with many of my friends, stayed with instructing and went to the job that we wanted to go to rather than settling for a run of the mill regional. Not saying I'm holier than thou but we all had choices when it came to where we chose to work. Some of us chose to spend a little longer time instructing and get into a regional where we can actually make a living and be happy for the long haul until the majors.

Of course I'm furloughed while many of my students who went to Brand X Regional are holding lines after being hired with 300 hours. Such is life.

But the question must be asked, what if XJT/skywest/Air Wisc/ etc. wouldn't hire you? Is someone just supposed say well couldn't get on with a carrier I wanted so Im done? Republic used to be no different than XJT and Skywest, except now there getting 70 and now 90+ seaters and their pay has not changed (still in contract negotiations) and everybody is pi ssed, as they should be for the time being. It will be fixed though, even BB knows it will need to be fixed, he has stated it several times. Point is we are no better than another pilot because of the company we work for.

Even though BB has stated pay rates need to be fixed, I seriously doubt he will make any effort to increase pay untill those 99 (100) seaters are parked by pilots not willing to fly for those wages any longer. I'm sure he will happily drag your contract negotiations out for years if possible.

The nice thing is that once republic/frontier/midwest/lynx gets integrated you will have the most experienced pilots in the industry working with the union to form a contract. BB is no longer the CEO of a regional anymore, he will need to figure out a way to make this place more pleasant for his employees to have a good product. He has former CEO sean menke to maybe help him realize that, as menke once had a good airline with good morale. Hopeful thinking I know.

As long as BB can keep multiple livery's, supplies feed to mainline, and maintains subpar payscales he will be the CEO of a regional. Midwest has been transformed to a regional during this process (the brand is now worthless), I hope the same does not happen to Frontier. If BB wants to run a major airline he needs to pick a name, paint the planes the same color and get on with business. My opinion is he is quite happy orchestrating the chaos between pilot groups and reaping the benefits.
JO would be proud.

JO is probably jealous.

As of right now next year the lists will need to be integrated per the timeline that is being formulated. That being said Frontier is not going anywhere, they have 3 A320's coming next year and are recalling, so is RAH. I am gonna side with optimism and say we will see better pay scales over the the next 4 years at RAH, you watch. No i dont work for republic.

I feel bad for the Midwest guys collecting unemployment. This situation could not be worse for them. They had great jobs, now they have no jobs. At this moment in time, I think that is all that matters. To make matters worse, I read a post earlier from a Frontier pilot talking about how all Bedford wants to do is grow Frontier. He could care less that Bedford shrank a 400 pilot airline out of existence. This is a perfect example about how the pilots still working (Midwest and Republic pilots) don't care that the Midwest pilots lost everything as long as the pilots still working benefit from it. I am glad I am not part of this whole situation.

I dont believe any part of that. I have many friends at republic that dont even think close to that. Pilots are pawns that are put in place through management.

Better scales huh? Marginally at best I bet.

If thats the case, then he better be prepped for excessive training costs in 4 years cause he will lose some people, and he will lose the battle to Southwest. Employee morale is very important.

Didn't you just post that it's republic's management not the pilots that are in control of that company!!

No, no, You got it all wrong. The IBT and BB are in on this together, and obviosuly BB has been in bed with TPG and MEH for YEARS now. Even the RAH EXCO has been dutifully keeping pay low just to help BB realize his master plan of buying a massive 25 aircraft airline, and the RAH pilots have been quietly helping this plot along the whole time. Conspiracy! Conspiracy! CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!

EVERYONE has been conspiring against the MEH pilots for years, because MEH pilots and their astronomical pay have been the biggest roadblock in this industry to lowering everyone's pay. They had to be wiped out, and now that team Republic has succeeded, we all do victory dances and buy our fearless CEO drinks every night. We NEEDED MEH, because there was no other way to break into the stand alone market. It's not like you can just go and buy an airline like Frontier, and instantly get 60 Airbuses. No, we needed MEH becuase that was the ONLY way we would ever get 190's. And without 190's, how would we ever be able to debase JetBlue's pay. Bedford has told us that the 190 is more than just an airplane... it is the ONLY way we could ever successfully destroy the industry. It is an instrument of God! He even showed us the "wrath of god" decals he plans to place on every 190 beginning in 2010.

Maybe it is just me, but this constant dribble about everyone being out to get the MEH pilots sounds just a little far fetched and ego-centric. I know that there are a bunch of stand up, level headed guys at Midwest who can see the situation for what it is, but unfortunately none of them post on this site.

RAH is recalling. As long as there are RAH pilots to recall, only they will be recalled to the RAH certificates. When the SLI is complete, the Midwest pilots will be put into aircraft as their seniority dictates. If the company won't send those guys to class, then please sue the heck out of the company. When you are entitled to something, go get it. For now, only a spot on the RAH seniority list entitles you to a seat in a RAH cockpit. Right or wrong, it doesn't matter. Ethics have been absent from law for years. What is written on paper is gospel, and for now the courts are preaching out of the book of RAH CBA. Midwest paint means nothing to the FAA, since the planes are on the RAH certificate. Apparently the courts don't think much of it either. Again, that is law, not our personal ethics at play. If my ethics mattered, there would be a whole slew of dead child molesters being taken away from the public gallows right now. If seniority was really so important, date of hire would be present in all mergers past. Good luck finding it.

I am really not a hard a$$, or a jerk. I am just getting real tired of this 'everyone is out to get us, no one cares about us' banter. Yes, it is a raw deal, and working for RAH will not be nearly as good as working for MEH. But Capitalism has many casualties, and the loss of your business is just one of thousands in the past few years. I feel bad for every person who has lost a job. I feel bad for the MEH pilots. But I don't feel any special sympathy for you. I have too many unemployed and underemployed family members to think that your case is special. I feel no guilt, because I have seen the life cycle of business on a personal level three times in my life, and I know exactly what I can control, and what is well beyond my sphere of influence. I know how hard this is on your families. I have been one of those families. Years later, I still am trying to help my parents through the consequences of capitalism and innovation in business. Life isn't pretty, and there aren't many 30 year careers left in this country. I honestly can't name a single person I know who has held employment for the same company for 30 years. Layoffs, closings, mergers...it catches up with us all at some point. Sorry it had to be you guys now.

continuing justification...

How very insightful sir! Care to add more to conversation? We simply need more of your indeepth analysis to keep this tread on topic! :rolleyes:


I thought Ballast's post was well thought out, compared to 99% of the other post that are nothing but knee jerk, emotionally fueled nonsense. As he said, until that SLI is completed, Midwest guys need to be patient and know they atleast have an option to keep flying. For any Midwest guys, I dont believe I have heard how well your union is communicating with the group regarding the integration. I am curious to know what ALPA has to tell you guys at this point in the dicussions.

Hi.

It could be a LOT worse for the Midwest pilots. No matter how bad (or good) things are, it can always get a lot worse, really quick.

TIE. (This Is Earth).

No one deserves anything. You get what you get. If you don't like what you get, you can try for better. No matter how bad things are, you can always try.

cliff
NBO