EMB-120 SOPs
 

Hi all,

I'm trying to develop SOPs for the EMB-120 Brasilia and was hoping that somebody in here has EMB time at a regional. If you do have some EMB-120 time at a regional such as Skywest, ASA, gulfstream, etc. and are willing to help please advise.

Regards

Kiz

Why are you tasked with this? Who for?

I am sure Embraer would be more than happy to help you develop your SOP's.

In the interest of security, I would suggest that anyone who is going to help this person verify who, what, when, where.

If you actually provide copies of an SOP, better sanitize any security stuff...that's federal law.

Step 1.
Don't crash

end of SOP

I think there are better sources for developing SOPs than a forum....is this Tony Williams' other user name? :)

Something seems a little weird about this..

I agree, this is very fishy. SOP's are sensitive material and if someone needs to develop one there are more official and more efficient ways to go about it than asking for help from these boards.

Maybe kizzle is a Skywest fleet manager?

I think we already have an SOP for the bro...

Contact Embraer for SOPs. If you are responsible for SOPs at your company, they can provide it to you and you can adopt their SOPs without any changes.

Fellas. An SOP is 'aint the bible...besides the SSI it is mostly fluff replacing a Pilot's decision-making ability with "you shalls," and "you musts." Just about anyone can make up some mindless babble like that, so chillax ;)

You all act like Osama Bin Laden himself just asked how to fly an airplane. Guys, this is just a newbie, trying to figure things out, in the wrong way. Cut him some slack. Plus, we're talking about an EMB-120 here, not a 777. Not exactly a terrorist target! Take off the tin foil hats!!!

Kizzle, as a few have stated, the best way to go about this is to contact Embraer to get checklists and operational manuals from them, then adapt those to your use. I'm assuming you're part 91. Don't expect anything useful from message boards. I have lots of time in Brakillyas, but it was so long ago I'm probably not of much help. G' luck.

Emb
 

Hi John,

Thanks for the response. Yes we're part 91 and we have already gone through the channels to get the various material we needed to develop our SOPs. As it stands we do have a set of SOPs that we are happy with. My main interest at this point is techniques used by people in the trenches to save fuel, maximize engine and prop life. Being that ASA and skywest probably have the most experience operating the aircraft i was figuring that i'd be able to get some ideas from some of the guys on what worked and what didn't. E.g. what kinda T6 settings were being used during cruise and climbs. What Np settings seemed to work best 100% to cruise, 100% to 12k then 90%, etc.. I no way was i asking for any material to be sent to me, etc.

Fair enough. I am an E120 Captain, a few more posts and you’ll be able to PM. Then I will send you some recommendations.

Thank you for the reply JetLock16. I'm not sure what PM stands for, sorry i'm new here. Is there a way to communicate privately in this forum?
My previous post pretty much covers what areas i'm interested in. I certainly do appreciate any recommendations you can provide.

Seasons Greetings and thanks again!

Kiz

PM means private message. This website has lots of asinine controls, and one of them is that you can't send/receive pm's until you have a certain status.

T6: I used to work at Great Lakes, and we routinely ran the engines to 800. This was with "B" model engines. (310kt TAS normal). At ASA, the limit was 780 I believe, 720 for cruise. This with "A" engines (270kt TAS normal).

Np: At both places, we used 100% Np for climb, and 86% Np for cruise. We did have the option to go to 90% Np in climb, I'm thinking it was at FL180, but don't quote me. FYI, Continental Express used minimum Np (76%?) for cruise and had success with it, but most 120 operators use 86%.

Climb was generally 84% Tq if I remember correctly.

Speaking of the prop, memorize the immediate action items for a prop overspeed condition. I'm just saying...

I recall a good rule of thumb being to take twice the desired airspeed, and dropping the last digit. For example, if 200kts desired, required 40% Tq.

More may come to me. Feel free to ask.

Once you can PM I'll add more but here's some numbers:

T6 Limits:
SkyWest climb limit ........................................... 720°C (Maximizes Eng life etc)
(Limit the higher of the T6's to 720 and then Match the other Tq)

MAX Cruise torque:
NP at 100% .................................................. .......... 72%
NP at 90% .................................................. ............ 80%
NP at 85% .................................................. ............ 84%
NP at 80% .................................................. ............ 84%
Min. NH for ops of deice equip .................................... 80%

Note: We cruise at 85% Np and have flip cards that take ALT and Temp into account to give us a cruise setting that’s 2/3’s performance and 1/3 economy.

NP Limits:
Max speed for setting NP to 100% ......................... 200 KIAS (Don’t use props as speed brakes!!!)
Min NP in icing conditions ............................................ 85%


Climb at 100% Tq and 720°C. At 12K reduce Np to 90% while observing the 720°C climb limitation. This reduces cabin noise. If needed the 720 limitation can be exceeded as need by the pilots.

Fuel conservation descent is roughly at 190 - 210 KIAS with a 2K FPM descent rate, Np at 80% and Tq around 30% or less.

HI guys,

Thank you for the information guys. I'm making notes. How about the best cruise altitudes to use? I gather you guys don't generally go above FL250? The engines are the straight 118s and the craft was converted from a RT to an ER. So i'm thinking going above 250 would be a stretch for us using the straight 118s.

I heard flaps can create maintenance issues. Any recommendations re. flap usage?

Regards

Kiz

How many more messages do i have to go before i can PM?

Just start posting 1, 2, 3 and so until you see your ability to PM pop up. Not sure but I think it's around 10ish. Then PM me your Q's and I'll gladly put together a nice recommendations WB for you.

I'm headed to work but we normally cruise between 210 and 260 with some ops up to 280. We operate E120ER's with 118B's. Straight 118's are reliable but are nowhere near as efficient as the B’s.

Okay i'll do that. I should be well on my way to having PM capability by now.

Hi guys. What are the most common maintenance issues with the EMB?

Regards

Kiz

Being that it is a T-Prop, I would think "common maintenance issue" is vague.

It would be easier to ask what works most of the time on the plane.

HI The Juice. I'm just trying to get up to PM status. Okay, what works most of the time on the EMB?

I'll crash without my tin foil hat, it's in the sop and there is even a spare under the fo seat :)

So, I'm the only guy that uses my real name, and now I'm tricking you. Rich.

By the way, this forum is an excellent, quick, and easy source for precisely the information that he is asking. It has worked well for me, too.

I don't know of any US carriers that use the factory supplied SOP's verbatim. But, like comparing other airline's SOP's, a combination of them makes a good starting point for developing your own, where none exists.

Finally, terrorists haven't spent a lot of time on safety protocols and SOP's. Get off that kick.

To the original poster, I'd be happy to send you all the SkyWest EMB-120 junk that I've got, but unfortunately it's about 6000 miles away.

Truer words were never spoken........:eek:

I find the EMB actually to be quite a reliable piece of machinery, at least in my couple years of flying it. The EEC's seem to fail a bit, but probably just due to their age. The flaps seem to give a few headaches, probably due to the hydraulic actuation, but other than a few control faults that have cleared, I've never had an issue with them. Have also had 2 deice timers fail on me. Terrain and GPWS issues seem to come up often, but will usually clear at power-down. Also the cargo and foward door indication systems seem to have frequent issues, microswitches probably get too much abuse just due to the sheer number of legs we fly each day. Other than that, great airplane in my opinion, seems to strand crews much less than the CRJ.

ER? Are we talking freight or passengers? I ask because the difference between the RT (~24K lbs) and ER(~26k lbs) is a performance issue. Will you regularly be loading it to ER limits? With straight 118, don't expect to see the upper 20s. At ASA, we had 118A engines and usually stayed 180-220. Above that was pushing it, especially in a "heavy" (ER). At GLA we had the 118Bs and those suckers regularly got to the upper 20s. I actually went to FL320 once, and she did fine.

Yes, the flaps do have issues. In my ~4 years flying the Bro, I had 3 flap failures (over hundreds of flights). It's usually a "disagreement" but an "asymmetry" is bad. You'll learn that the flap actuation system is ridiculously over engineered and that if it's not properly maintained, it becomes a nightmare. All 4 panels are independently controlled and actuated! Also, we learned that deice fluid majorly screws up the actuators. Remember that. Respect the flap speeds, and spend the money to maintain them.

1. Props. THIS THING WILL KILL YOU, SPEND THE $$$ AT A REPUTABLE SHOP THAT KNOWS BRASILIAS!!!

2. Flaps. See above.

3. EECs. They tend to drop offline in climb often, causing the engine to roll back about 10-20%Tq. Requires you to level off, power that engine to idle, and reset them. If it craps out on takeoff, the engine "fails fixed" at takeoff power, and the power cannot be retarded until you reset the EEC! That's why it's best NOT to abort for an EEC fail on takeoff!

4. Random items. I won't lie to you. This airplane is maintenance intensive, and the parts are becoming scarce. You can pick -120s up cheap, but they're expensive to PROPERLY maintain. And this particular airframe is very unforgiving to shoddy maintenance. Keep that in mind.

Thanks much for all the info guys, i'm really getting some good info here. It's an ER QC model so we can configure it for both. I'm sure we'll get up to the ER limit on some days. Did you guys roll back the flap speeds for operational use? E.g. by -10kts

Yes...........

Well said! Thanks again for all the info John! Did you guys T/O with bleeds off, low or auto? We are planning to use APG for the T/O perf and W & B calcs. Anything else we should have ready at hand as flip cards, etc.

Regards

Kiz

Wow, now you're getting technical. I haven't touched once since 2003! I'm thinking we took off with engine bleeds closed, packs running off APU at both places if the APU was available. If APU deferred, it was bleeds off, unpressurized, or big weight hit. APG is good... that's who we used. Flip cards? I'd opine V speeds, power settings, and immediate action items.

John is absolutely right, the props wan't to kill you. Some design issues with the prop have been changed since the numerous and once lethal overspeeds in the aircraft's early years, and for the better. Can't remember the technical term, but that worm gear thingy in the middle of the hub saw a materials change, which meant the mechanism's threads didn't progressively fret away, leading to loss of control of the prop. So that got fixed then the lovely 14RF-9 found new ways to kill. One nick inside the quill shaft (aluminum boss that interfaces with the rest of the blade's foam core) led to blade loss, a nacelle bent 90 degrees sideways, and the horrific fatal ASA accident. So when he says don't cheap out on the props, don't. Prop related issues account for about half of the US wrecks, off the top of my head. I've never survived a severe overspeed in the sim.

At our company we are almost laughably quick to perform a precautionary engine shutdown. Just a few percent Np over and folks secure it, I don't know if that's really warranted, but we've never lost an airplane. One still murky overspeed to 120% right after takeoff was halted by a lightning fast first officer who got it feathered before the Capt could even ask for it. Alarmingly, the transfer tube can be physically installed backwards. If you chase the prop control schematic closely you'll find that the loss of a single oil line will drive the prop to an overspeed condition, but I can't remember if the pitch lock function would try to save it. Regardless, one piece of strategic FOD in the hub could render the pitch lock unable to retain hub oil, and therefore pitch.

- "Max speed for setting NP to 100% .. 200 KIAS (Don’t use props as speed brakes!!!)"

This one is interesting, we didn't have it Lakes. But a new Brasilia pilot will be tempted to use the props for drag exactly once: "Condition levers max!!" comes the panicky cry....and exactly nothing happens. Makes the issue moot. The inflight low pitch stop is set high enough that it is just not an issue.

Flaps. They were designed by a dork. If you're getting disagrees resist the temptation to lube, spray, or grease the very obvious and visible flap tracks. Once you add any form of goop to the equation you're begging for worse disagree trouble down the road. The superior solution is to to keep the flap tracks operating room clean. Dry and shiny is the optimum. Plan on doing lots of flap computer resets anyway. Oh, and the assymetry with one outboard panel going to 45 degrees is mortifying, but survivable. Plan on full aileron, possibly full rudder, with differential thrust putting you back in the world of controlability.

Landing gear. It doesn't like to retract, but you'll always manage to get it down, one way or another. Our 6 airplane airline probably averaged one manual extension per year, and that was more often due to some catastrophic hydraulic problem that actually the landing gear's fault. There are various and sundry reasons for it not to retract, on a check flight for an airplane fresh out of C-check we would cycle the living hell out of the gear. Once you get your succesful retraction ratio up above 90% I generally considered it good to go.

Don't get too excited about the door annunciators, especially the service door. That panel wants to suck open at high speeds and routinely throws it's light. Don't ever reef on the cargo door. If bags have fallen against it and it's difficult to open, put all your strength into pushing the door inwards, NOT into cranking the handle. Torque the handle and the door comes off it's tracks, and you are f-ed. I'll never forget specifically warning a ramper about our full cargo bin, and asking her to avoid hanging off the handle. 15 mintues later, "Clunk," and we were done for the night.

Get slow or pull many Gs in ice and the airplane will signal its dissatisfaction with some wiggles and shudders. So just don't. Some turboprops are ice trucks, this one isn't.

But altogether it's a great machine. She's like a redhead, alot of fun until she gets ****ed off. In what other manmade device can you carry 30 people at FL300kts and see a cruise fuel flow of 1000pph total? I really miss the Brasilia, I loved that portugese speaking drama queen.

I agree with everything that's been said both John and Cardinal......

I'll first add that the E120 does not like it when it’s cold. You’ll often have FFOD (First Flight of Day) system check failures due to it just being cold. I recommend you let the a/c warm up and try it again. If it fails a second time then call Mx Control. This happens most often with the AP test.

BTW, the best way to warm up or cool off the EMB is to start the APU, open the APU bleed and crossbleed and trun the Packs on Low, leave the fans off so it cools/heats the belly of the a/c first. Then after you feel warm or cold air coming out of the side pilot console vents then turn the fans on which will circulate the cold/warm air throughout. Keep mind that the main temperature sensor is by the main cabin door (MCD). During the winter, when the MCD is open keep the Pack temperature knobs on full cold otherwise you will burn up the packs and smoke the cabin due to the sensor always sensing the cold air from the MCD.

Engine starts: After start the eninges make sure the Nh is above 60% before you move the Condition Levers to Min. Otherwise the EEC’s won’t come on line. If they don’t, just start the second engine and then reset the EEC’s.

Takeoff: What for “fail Fix’s” and only abort at slow speeds. The 2 FF’s I’ve had both happened just after I added power (only moving about 20kts) so I aborted. If your power is set to TO power and you experience a “Fail Fix,” DO NOT!!! abort as you WILL ground-loop the a/c (the failed side will stay at TO power and the other side will retard).

Next, just after rotation as you're passing through 120 knots the green rudder hydraulic actuators system is suppose to depressurize. If it does not you will end up with an overboost situation which will freeze your rudders. The QRH will simply tell you to turn the Blue isolation rudder switch off…………memorize this. At SKW we have the right to turn the switch off without consulting the QRH only if it happens during a critical phase of flight such as just after TO. Remember the E120 requires you to add a lot of right rudder on TO and climb out so if your rudders are frozen that is a very serious situation.

Climb: We climb at 180 and in tail wings 170.

Power Changes: Get used to always trimming the rudder. Any change in power will require you to trim the rudder, this is nonstop.

EEC’s: If they fail on climb out or in cruise it will feel like an engine failure. The failed EEC will cause a rollback in torque of around 20% which can be dramatic if you have high power settings.

Props: DO NOT USE THEM AS SPEED BRAKES. These things are dangerous and many accidents have occurred due to using them as speed brakes. Treat them very kindly and move them slowly!!!!!!!

Be careful this is a reenactment of an E120 prop overspeed at a very low altitude. Replay it a few times and watch at what speed they moved the props to max and checkout the Np’s. Then check out the pilots fight to maintain control.

YouTube - Voice Recorder / Black Box of Embraer 120 Accident

ASA FLT 7529, August 1995: http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1996/aar9606.pdf

YouTube - Lost Wing - Tribute to Flight 529

MEMORIZED the “Prop Overspeed” procedure and know it well.

Ice: Do not go slower than 170 knots in icing conditions; I hope you have the “Comair” box installed.

Comair 5054, March 2001: NTSB - Advisory

Comair 3272, January 1997: DCA97MA017

This is a start, I’ll add more later when I get a chance.

EECs. I dont recall a need to level, idle, and then reset, perhaps that is what the QRH says. But we often treated it as an informal immediate action: Yaw, "Engine Control," reach up and reset it, power is restored and you're back on an even keel after only one swing of the nose. It happened often enough to become a habit.

Don't put the packs on high unless you desire a cabin full of smoke. Never do it if you're on only one pack to begin with - the remaining pack will eventually trip and now your cabin is climbing. If you sniff environmental smoke after landing just wait for it, in about 60 seconds you'll have your answer: after the offending pack trips you'll know which inoperative ground cooling fan to either a) Strike with a rubber mallet, or b) Replace.

Gear indication system works well but is prone to damage. Frozen slush on the gear leg will totally thrash the proximity sensors, and you'll see a christmas tree on the lg indications. But the gear has 3000psi of motivation, so it's probably down and locked.

When in doubt, reset whatever troubles you. Often the solution to gremlins lies in total power removal from the aircraft. I think i remember removing all power from the aircraft for troubleshooting purposes and the APU kept running, so that might be handy someday.

Our QRH says to do the above; it's mainly for the PAX inorder to reduce the yaw tendencies from large torque changes.

Gospel truth. Amazing that the thread got this far before it was brought up. A couple % torque, or as little as a 4 or 5 knot airpseed change will demand rudder trim. It's simply a fourth primary flight control, treat it as such and budget your workload so that you have a hand to run it.

Disclaimer: I haven't turned a prop on the Brasilia for 2.5 busy years so take everything with a grain of salt.