I wouldnt worry about the Colgan guys flying into Mexico. The majority of guys I flew over there came from the Beech and could fly an airplane better than most...............

Mountains or not, an approach is an approach and the Q's probably are better equipped than most of the RJ's going down there..........

Well now that everyone has kissed and made up. Anyone else know where these Q are going to fly?

For sure!!! A buddy of mine flies 135 (equivalent of) in Mexico, and they don't always have the toys (that must suck!), but at least they have the home court advantage :D

Isn't that truth! I've had a controller more or less create his own arc/approach at one point....he called it "vectors to final (3 mile final!!:eek:), on account of "conflicting traffic" on the departure/arrival airway. It was all good (VFR), but you definitely see some interesting things happen there from time to time, particularly in non-radar environments.

I sure wish we were RNAV approved in some places Ponch :D

I didn't realize there was any fighting going on.... anyone who tries to kiss me is going to get some Skoal Wintergreen as a present....

Huh...I must be doing something wrong then. I can't seem to find the "fly itself" button on a 402.

I've done lots and lots of single pilot in the hardest IFR you've ever seen in the northeast, as well as plenty of 121 jet flying into the interior of Mexico. After doing both, let me tell you: Flying jets down in Mexico is very very close to the same level of challenge, particularly when you're down there at night dodging thunderstorms in the middle of the summer.

Settle down, we know you are the greatest thing in aviation...next to Sully of course.

The Q has to range to go to STL from IAH if they wanted to... Horizon has flown them from BOI to LAX (almost 900 miles) and it takes them just a few minutes longer than it takes an RJ.

Also, terrain is less a factor than it is in the RJ.

Mexico flying isn't fun. Full approaches, DME arcs, Teardrops, and a bunch of other stuff I only read about in IFR ground school.

I am awesome, but that's not the point here. ;)

My point is that you shouldn't be making a brazen comparison like SPIFR vs. 121 Mexico flying unless you've done both. Have you done both?

The background of most of Colgans pilots are beech 1900 and the saab into podunk back country airports. Many of the pilots here are used to flying a non precision or arc into a non towered airport at night in icing.

Yes, Mexico will be a new and different challenge but so far we are only talking one airport, Monterey. I cant imagine how that one single airport will be just out of reach of the capabilities of the majority of pilots here.

Yes, we have a few pilots that are very capable of flying an arc into the side of a mountain in day VMC, luckily that is not the norm.

I dont see how we have gotten over 40 posts on this topic.

I like your Skoal, but nothing wrong with mixing it up with a little Red Man Golden Blend. (hint)

Most of the posts have been about the marketability and operational flexibility of the Q, I don't see anyone questioning the skills of any pilot group, there have been a few post talking about the different challenges that flying into Mexico can bring though. Either you're too lazy to read all 40 posts, or you don't read very well. Which one is it?

Some of us enjoy the challenge and the overnights, it's definitely not for everybody though; we have guys that bid around the Mexico stuff, which is hard to do considering no other airline covers as many markets as we do in Mexico, and I mean XJT, not mainline, we even cover more markets than some of the Mexican carriers.

Does Colgan let you jumpseat internationally? If not im giong to have to find another ride home to MTY...

Something tells me im going to miss xjet service down south...

Not to worry there boss, CAL is only going to replace one or two of the XJT flights with Q's, if anything, it will probably make up more room for you to continue to go home on us. Heck, CAL has been talking about 737 service again in there for while, so I wouldn't be too worried about it. :)

You must have a very good A/P and FMS......I do it but not because I enjoy it.... Every one seating in a left or right seat of any airliner should have the basic skill of doing an arc even at nite... and be safe about it too!!!

The ERJ does not. Unless things have changed (not likely), all the approaches must be flown green-needles, even the arcs. On top of that, I've had to hand fly plenty due to those sketchy Mexican VORs.

Some like the challenge. I know I do.

Green needles!?!?! Hand fly!?!?!?!?! Sketchy VORs!?!?!?!

Wait, why would you have to hand-fly due to sketchy VORs? Can you not turn a heading bug? DAS is about the king of Sketchy VORs (and yes, I have flown in Mexico before), and all that means is you can't use Nav mode. I'm sure your airplane has a Heading mode, too, yes?

You know what this sounds like? Every day ops for Saab/Beech/DC-9 drivers.

Edit: What I'm saying, I guess, is that I'm confident that any airline pilot is confident in their own ability to fly under these conditions, otherwise they have no business doing the job they do. That being said, knowing that a hand-flown non-radar arc/teardrop approach was going to happen during the flight, and I could pick the pilots, I'm grabbing guys with experience in the Beech.

You're not shooting approaches over DAS.

Anyway, I'm talking about disconnecting the autopilot when you're going into SLW and the autopilot starts trying to turn you 30 degrees off the final approach course. Anyway, it's been a solid year and a half for me since I've flown that plane into Mexico (or flown it, period).

I understand, but my point is that you're talking to a pilot group who, until very recently, only flew Beech 1900s and Saab 340s. Telling us about how hard "green needle" approaches are with no autopilot is like complaining to a dentist about how bad one of your co-workers breath stinks. That dentist is thinking "I have my head in that all day long..."

Granted, I can't say that our Q FO group has that experience, as most of them were hired straight into the Q, but almost all of the captains are transitions from the Beech and/or Saab.

Just to make it clear, I never said that you guys were unable to do the flying. Okay, I did, but definitely in jest. :D I was based in VT with my current company all summer and know that Colgan used to do the same route in airplanes with comparable equipment to my own. Nothing but respect from me for the flying you guys do. I know what it's like.

I was simply responding to Jetrecruiter's claim that the ERJ has a good FMS/AP to help out in Mexico. It does not.

Ok, we're cool. If you buy me a beer.

That's really funny

I'm a pilot. What makes you think I have money? :D

It's okay, between 9K and 9L we both do some pretty Billy Badass flying.











...but we're still cooler.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm282/bdess/kirk.jpg

Since honesty is the best policy I will say it was a little bit of both. My only remaining hope is that you find it in your heart to forgive me.

It's all in good fun lad, although to your credit, not a page after you wrote your post, it did turn into a couple of guys getting all personal about it, so I guess you called it! :D

Cheers.

I likey the red man as well... its just hard to find the stuff when mine is so conveniently available at the airport J.

Colgan is now hiring 150 pilots. First class in Feb. Jus sayin.

LoL I've flown with exactly one Captain in my career that I would trust doing a back-country DME arc green-needles and raw-data in the mountains...Come to think of it, I've only seen exactly one respectable ILS into a major airport hand-flown. Nothing in this world scares me more than an Airline pilot. Scratch that, I meant an RJ pilot (guy I'm flying with now near-pulled a Colgan on approach yesterday)...I have all the respect for y'all bombing around on steam-gauges, and wish I could join you.

No steam for the dash 8 guys...I wouldnt trust myself on a raw data DME arc....I havent flown one in almost 3 years. I am sure I could figure it out again although preferably not with revenue in the back.

You're right...not on the Q.

And isn't that the point? Don't mean to single you out here, but as professionals, should we not do everything we can to maintain our skills? Is it right, that just because we fly glass, we allow the automation to erode our confidence? If you've gotten to the point where you aren't comfortable flying the plane in the worst situation imaginable with revenue in the back, then you've already let it go too far...again, nothing personal -- generally I like where your head is at LoL

Agree 100%.

Sadly enough when I was furloughed from my regional it took concentration to even hand fly an ILS with the flight director. I remember how unprofessional I felt after that.

ExperimentalAB: Want to see a respectable hand-flown ILS into a major airport? Fly with a Cape Air pilot into BOS on an 1800 RVR day. I'm extraordinarily biased (at least I'm up-front about it ;)), but I'd trust my life to a fellow 9K pilot before any other regional. Sorry if that's harsh to some, but lots of these guys who went from CFI to right seat of an RJ don't have any real skills. And I know, because I was one of them. I now can't believe that they felt I was qualified for my seat in an RJ. I wasn't. Gotta get some hard IFR flying at some point in your career, whether it's flying people in old 402s, checks, freight, beat up turboprops in the north country, whatever.

No disrespect, but it must be the people you are flying with, I fly with guys and girls that can hand-fly on green needles down to minimums w/o a FD with dead on accuracy.........

No problem with singling me out.

I do not trust myself on a blue needle DME arc because we do not have any in our system. I hand fly a good deal in the plane and feel proficient in all aspects of the envelope we fly in but that does not account for the situations outside the envelope.

Unless we load one up in the sim I will not see one.

I agree as well, the saab was a good move for me. Shooting an NDB app to mins with a circle to land (cause the loc and vor app was out of service and the winds were kickin the way we didnt want it to) in DRT at night with the autopilot and fd mel'd was pretty crazy. It was like flying a 28,000lb piper warrior. LOL I believe going vor to vor and lots of hand flying has made me a better pilot no doubt. :D

And it was snowing, and there were Monkeys on the runway, and did I mention we lost an engine, and and and...;)

Agreed, I've seen many people do it. Hell...My last flight was RDU-EWR in crap weather down to mins with no AP or FMS. It was possibly the best flight I've ever had...even with all the EWR vectoring. I had 3 passengers say it was one of the smoothest flights they've ever experienced...I assume they were drunk.

^ you fly in the northeast yesterday? I was Deadheading on a CHQ flight from CLE-BWI, Severe Turbulence, it was F----- awful, crew did a hell of a job ( In an Rj ;) ). The amount of cycles we do in the northeast, I am pretty confident in 99.8% of the regional guys/girls out there, considering the lack of movement ,most crews have been in seat for at least 2+ years

You forgot;

They narrowly missed a school bus full of children.