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-   -   Pinnacle CA suspended (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/47889-pinnacle-ca-suspended.html)

frozenboxhauler 02-03-2010 12:10 AM


Originally Posted by Swedish Blender (Post 756872)
The captain should have said he wanted to wait for the weather. Refusing because the A/P is inop is lame. You are supposed to be a professional. What, can't hand fly?
Leave out the A/P excuse and I would agree

I know several people who used to have to hand fly a Lear at 410 from the midwest to the west coast.

Unless you're flying in RVSM airspace.
fbh

CircleK 02-03-2010 12:50 AM

How is the CRJ when it comes to hand flying?

(No autopilot on the bird I fly)

TonyWilliams 02-03-2010 01:21 AM


Originally Posted by CircleK (Post 756884)
How is the CRJ when it comes to hand flying?

(No autopilot on the bird I fly)


It's easy, if you practice. It's still a swept wing jet travelling at 300 knots or Mach .77. One half degree change in pitch will significantly change your altitude/climb rate if left unchecked.

Level offs must be anticipated, or you'll plant people on the ceiling.

Staying on the course centerline is easier than any Cessna. Once level and trimmed, it's not completely boring, because it takes a fair amount of yoke movement /trim / pressure to correct (with any turbulence).

Didn't TWA specifically not include autopilots in the their early planes because pilots were lazy?

chignutsak 02-03-2010 02:04 AM


Originally Posted by Swedish Blender (Post 756872)
...I know several people who used to have to hand fly a Lear at 410 from the midwest to the west coast.

Did these heroes also conclude their flights with single-engine, inverted, full NDB's, timed with an hourglass, to minimums landing on a 3000 foot ice slick with 50-knot gusts directly across the runway?

Justdoinmyjob 02-03-2010 03:38 AM


Originally Posted by chignutsak (Post 756891)
Did these heroes also conclude their flights with single-engine, inverted, full NDB's, timed with an hourglass, to minimums landing on a 3000 foot ice slick with 50-knot gusts directly across the runway?


Unless the Pinnacle captain was facing those conditions at his destination, then I'd say your sarcasm is a little misplaced. Flying without an autopilot is a normal occurance. Why do you think we practice hand flown approaches? At three airlines I've been at, including a legacy, the autopilots are deferrable.

As someone else said, refusing a plane for a busted A/P, is, well is dumb. Delaying a flight because of enroute/destination wx coupled with the degraded capabilities of the airplane is the way to go. Not saying they wouldn't have reacted differently, but it is a much better starting point defensibly.

And yes, I've flown an RJ on a 4 leg, dayline with wx and no autopilot. It can be done. Just means no sudoku for the day.

gtechpilot 02-03-2010 04:17 AM


Originally Posted by Swedish Blender (Post 756872)
I know several people who used to have to hand fly a Lear at 410 from the midwest to the west coast.

I've flown a Lear at 410 several times for 2+ hour block times with no autopilot. It's really a non event - yes it takes more concentration, but there are two of you and you can take turns. Having weather at the destination and in route really wasn't an issue either. As for RVSM, you can get permission to pass through it. ATC was always very amiable with our requests.

As for this captain, I'm not slamming him for his decision, but in my experience, the CRJ was much easier to control at FL270/280 with no AP than the Lear was at FL410. I don't see the big deal with flying without an AP but I can see where anyone who is used to relying on it might balk in this situation (no sarcasm intended).

RJ Pilot 02-03-2010 04:18 AM


Originally Posted by Swedish Blender (Post 756872)
The captain should have said he wanted to wait for the weather. Refusing because the A/P is inop is lame. You are supposed to be a professional. What, can't hand fly?
Leave out the A/P excuse and I would agree

Very well said.

higney85 02-03-2010 04:45 AM

What base was this CA from? This is a fight that a rep should win, did this CA forfeit their rep? This action in behalf of the company doesn't surprise me.

UnlimitedAkro 02-03-2010 05:01 AM


Originally Posted by CircleK (Post 756884)
How is the CRJ when it comes to hand flying?

(No autopilot on the bird I fly)

It is pretty easy to hand fly....

Unless you have to do it for two straight hours. Your brain turns to mush after about 45 minutes, usually from the 430am showtime and 16 hour duty day you had the previous 2 days. Throw in bad weather, and now its not safe. Pilot flying starts to get tunnel vision, and their situational awareness drops to nearly zero. And as the P/M picks up the remaining workload, their situational awareness drops as well. In bad weather it is a bad combo. Not safe. Period. It sounds like that Captain made a safe decision.

mooney 02-03-2010 05:33 AM


Originally Posted by higney85 (Post 756916)
What base was this CA from? This is a fight that a rep should win, did this CA forfeit their rep? This action in behalf of the company doesn't surprise me.

99% sure it was a MEM guy. I overheard a guy a few weeks ago in ops saying how he refused one and a reserve eventually took it.


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