Handflying an rj is a piece of cake. Maybe if more of the current commuter pilots spent time as freight dogs and actually had some experience before getting their airline job things like this wouldn't happen. Learn to fly BEFORE becoming an airline pilot. I guess we can blame the industry for allowing low time, inexperienced pilots in the cockpit. Reference the Colgan Captain and the poor FO stuck with him...she was just along for the ride.

I guess my hardest flight without an autopilot was in a simple little citation flying from msp to pae. Stupid northern lights were wild that night and kept tripping my brain. Couldn't look out the window without those dancing lights giving us both vertigo. Sure was a pretty sight though.

I have to give the Captain some kudos. With the erosion of Captain authority I'm glad this one had some stones. He didn't feel comfortable and made a decision. I can't believe how many pansies are out there that can't make a decision...even if its the wrong one. (not saying his was wrong, weather sucked, late night, long duty day, not comfortable with own ability = safe choice)

Full disclosure....Current plane I'm in doesn't let you fly without an autopilot if the automatic pressurization controller is inop. The non-flying pilot has to spend the whole flight keeping peoples ears from exploding.

What was the schedule like?

Had he already been on duty all day and flown a bunch?

Was he starting fresh but with an F/O who had been on duty for 12 hours already?

Or were they both reporting for duty from time off at that time.

I'm going to agree with this. Not going to comment on this case since I wasn't there and don't know all the factors behind the decision. I would not accept an airplane without an working a/p myself if I thought conditions were less than ideal (think DTW-LGA thunderstorms 13 hour duty day no FMS green FO expecting lots of holds and the like :D). However I have accepted plenty where it is a beautiful VFR night with a 45 minute hop and the FO is all over me for accepting the airplane, and it is USUALLY the guys who got hired into an airline job with 300-800 hours who never had to hand fly any cross country legs on a high performance aircraft with no autopilot (or a crappy autopilot). Those that have think it's no big deal.

Funniest one was a guy who hand flew every leg one day, then whined that we swapped into a autopilot deferred bird for the last leg:rolleyes:

Seriously its the industry's fault for letting low time pilots who have dont their teeth sharpened and confidence from flying single pilot night IFR. Anyone who was a freight dog probably would have taken that plane. That being said I dont know all of the factors and it could have been a long duty day and bad weather etc........The pilot exercised his PIC authority and the company should'nt have thrown him under the bus for it. It should have been the other way around. It takes more balls to say "Im uncomfortable and dont want to go" than it does to just say "Well its legal guess Ill try it". My hats off to this guy for doing what he thought was safe and not bending to outside pressure.

It is, but even those of us who had plenty of previous 91 IMC time can get a little rusty after years in the RJ (I hand fly a lot, but we just don't hand fly complicated approaches).

For me personally, this situation would come down to the approach and the missed approach. Vectors to an ILS with a simple missed in the heartland...sure I'd hand fly it. The airport conditions wouldn't really matter (as long as they were better than cat-II), because I always hand fly the LDG anyway...

But lets say we had a non-precision, non-radar, full approach with a PT and/or a complicated missed in mountainous terrain. I'd take a pass on that...we are just not current on that kind of hand flying.

Kudos to both of those CA's (sounds like the second guy stalled until the Wx cleared). I hope alpa takes care of them.

Yes this guy could have hand flown the whole way, probably with no adverse situation happening, but if something wrong were to happen, do you think Pinnacle would be there defending the crew saying he was more than qualified to do this, no we would be reading about how the captain made a bad choice, then we woudl have had a revision saying that the auto pilot must be turned on at 600 feet for the rest of the flight.
I say, good job refusing the plane.

THIS PLACE DOES NOT GET IT AND THEY NEVER WILL.

I don't think you can crucify someone for not being a freight dog in their past. Everyone has different levels of experience, and we all have different levels of comfort. This CA made a decision. None of us were there, and we should ALL back the guy up. Those of you who are saying "Oh he's just a low time 200 hour wonder who never hand flies" are no better than the chief pilot who suspended him.

I was fairly low time when I went to Mesa, and hand flew ALL the time. Most of my approaches were hand flown, and I had no problem flying without an autopilot, FMS or flight director. Longest flight for me was AUS-IAD with no A/P and a deferred FMS. It was supposed to be the captains leg, but I volunteered to fly it for him.

The point is, we weren't there, and we've all made decisions that could have been monday morning quarterbacked the next day. Just the thought that some people are jumping on this guys back really frustrates me. He's the captain of a 121 airliner, and his decision should be respected and listened to. None of us have any business to say anything except to say good job to him for standing up to the company and holding his own for something he wasn't comfortable with. That's all that matters.

Okay, this is how I read the FAR's pertaining to RVSM;

...(c) Altitude-keeping equipment: All aircraft. To approve an aircraft group or a nongroup aircraft, the Administrator must find that the aircraft meets the following requirements:
(1) The aircraft must be equipped with two operational independent altitude measurement systems.
(2) The aircraft must be equipped with at least one automatic altitude control system that controls the aircraft altitude—
(i) Within a tolerance band of ±65 feet about an acquired altitude when the aircraft is operated in straight and level flight under nonturbulent, nongust conditions; or
(ii) Within a tolerance band of ±130 feet under nonturbulent, nongust conditions for aircraft for which application for type certification occurred on or before April 9, 1997 that are equipped with an automatic altitude control system with flight management/performance system inputs.

...further reading shows approval for both group and non-group operators to operate in RVSM airspace must be submitted to the regional FSDO in coordination with air traffic control. Certain flights are approved; air ambulance operations, DoD flights, transitioning through RVSM airspace to FL430 and higher, etc.
Also, operators of MMEL aircraft must obtain permission from FSDO for operating in RVSM airspace with non-functioning required systems...

So, for all those who say, "C'mon man, a real pilot would hand fly, blah, blah!" This Captain seems to have exercised sound judgement. RVSM airspace has inherently tighter tolerances requiring system functionality...unless I'm missing something, (or they filed for below FL290 the whole way).

Yeah in the situation I mentioned (AUS-IAD) in my previous post before yours, we were filed at FL270 for the 2:30 flight.

A dispatcher with some common sense would have swapped aircraft so that the one without an autopilot would have done a shorter flight.

Perhaps this PIC was one of those DCA guys that got hired at 300hours. He's known nothing but a high level of automation his entire career. If that's the case, I'm glad he had the balls to speak up about a situation he thought was beyond his skill level. If the airlines want to hire at that level of experience, they shouldnt expect much.