We should all be dealing in facts.You are wrong and I think personal guesses should be left out of discussions.Lets stop with false statements and stick with the truth in these posts.

There are other forms of compensation besides cash...service people usually feel they are part of something larger, and they are generally respected for what they do.

Also even junior enlisted pay is not that bad...when you factor in benefits, tax-free allowances and any specialty pays they progress about the same as an RJ pilot (specialty pay is the key...some skills have recently gotten retention bonuses near $200k).

Sorry but you can't take Sulley out of the picture. Sulley is not special, and dosen't represent just one person but tens of thousands of Major Airline Pilots with equal number of hours and experience who would have exhibited the same professional demeanor and calm to produce the best possible outcome. Sulley just drew the straw.

Cheers

i equate it to more of a comair... that emas did the trick. T/o with zero situational awareness.

I think a lot of it has to do with training. Who do you think has the better training, the regionals or the majors? Maybe this crew could of been a bit more professional but I think their shortcomings were more a result of insufficient training. Also as to your attitude that this could NEVER happen to you, this sounds like a very unhealthy attitude to take in aviation. Once one begins to take on this attitude one begins to feel infallible. Yes, this might never happen to you but one of a million different things might happen that end up putting you in a similar predicament. A more healthy atttude might be this could happen to me so I am going to do everything in my power to make sure it doesn't.

I'll agree that the improper setting of the flaps can happen to any CA and FO.

What would not happen to any of us: Selecting flaps 20 above 80 knots to remedy the problem.

What he should of done was abort, follow the company procedures for the abort (telling dispatch, brake cooling, report etc.), set the flaps to 20 and blasted off.

It would have been a lot easier than what they've put up with (and will continue to put up with), now that the report is public.

Unfortunately, he is 100% correct.

The level of discipline required to attain a regional jet job reached an all-time low in recent years. It would guess accidents like this are the fallout of such times.

Apparently the effects of accidents like Buffalo and Lexington only last so long before professionalism falls back off the cliff.

Transcript Policy?
 

I recently saw Captain Sullenberger give a talk regarding the Cactus 1549 incident. One of the things he mentioned is that the NTSB policy is not to release cockpit transcripts. I think the reasoning was to foster open communication between FO and Captain. They might be more reluctant to speak up if every word may eventually become public.

But here we have a detailed transcript released less than 4 months after the incident.

Can anyone explain this apparent discrepancy?

That's a pretty bold statement. I'm certain this crew also felt that it'd never happen to them.

The NTSB almost always releases CVR transcripts after an accident. What they don't release is the actual recording.

Thats right, they were wide awake and overflew the airport. . :rolleyes:

I personally don't think it's anyone’s business but the airlines, NTSB and the FAA.
Making public what the crew did the night before is none of anyone's business but their own. I find this intrusion very disturbing and we should all have a right to person privacy. If a conversation on the CVR wasn't related to work then it should be bleeped out. Just like the swear words. It just isn't anybody’s business.

It's not a statement, it's my commitment. When is the last time you heard of a fully loaded 777, 767, or MD-11 push the power up with the wrong flap setting? The consequences with 355 pax (MD-11) and 220 thousands Lbs. of fuel are very unforgiving.

It's deadly serious.

These two were more interested in cars.

I guess now they will have plenty of time to shop around for them.

Sorry but my wife and kids could have been on that flight. I really have no pity for them.

Get your ****** together or get out.

Ok I'm done for another 5 yrs.

Surfs up,

Nada

OK. I'll give that to you. However you look at it, they flew past their airport of intended landing. FACT: It was by nature of the pilots not doing their job.

If you are looking for hard facts on a public aviation forum good luck trying to find that.

I totally agree that there is more to it than pay. To most in the service, it's all about serving their country.

How is it that a service member can be making less than 30K a year before hazardous duty pay in a war zone and a private contractor can go do the exact same job flying a UAV for less than half of the period of time as the service member and make 150K for that 6 months? Is either of those two individuals more experienced than the other? Maybe. Is one more of a professional than the other?

I really don't want to start in on this, but regional airlines are not the only airlines that have had their fair share of problems. It's already been brought up, but what about the Northwest A320 that overflew MSP? Not going to fly on an A320 anymore?

What about the CAL 737 that lost control on takeoff in DEN?

What about the AA 737 that overran in Jamaica?

What about the SWA 737 that overran in MDW?

What about the SWA 737 that overran in BUR?

What about the MD-11 that crashed in Narita?

What about the MD-11 that crashed in MEM?

What about the DAL 727 that crashed in DFW after taking off at the incorrect flap setting? (DCA88MA072 ...looks familiar right?)

Honestly, I don't trust the type of pilot who sits there and says "It won't happen to me." The pilots who sit down and thoroughly read an accident transcript, realize it could be them, and actually learn something from it are the most professional pilots in my book.

Don't forget the NWA DC-9 that did the same thing in DTW.

Nada,

Not picking on you but there have been times when a "major" has made very costly human errors and unfortunately it will happen again at all levels.

In this situation it's just good no one was hurt. The problem is if this wasnt the first time that it had happened (changing config during TO), and that if it were 31L in JFK we would never have heard about.

On a side note, would they have made it if they continued at flap 8 out of CRW??

Why would it matter how many pax or how much fuel? From a Cessna 152 to an A380, a life is a life. It does and it will happen no matter what you're flying or how many are on board. Read the accident report(s) and learn. No one is exempt from complacency or distractions, no matter what they fly.

Phewwww...is anybody else hot in here? One of the more lively debates I've read on here. That being said, why is there a major vs. regional mentality? We're all pilots. We're all passionate about what we do. I don't know why you major guys walk around with your chest puffed out like your infalliable. I think that NIGHTIP did a d-mn fine job of providing evidence of major airline accidents caused by grossly unprofessional behavior in the cockpit.

How about this...if youre a major airline pilot and you yourself think youre God's gift to aviation. You think you are completely incapable of having an accident/incident and you think that regional pilots are worthless excuses of wannabe pilots...take a regional pilot "under your wing" (lame pun i know) and mentor that pilot to become more like you. Don't get on here and run your mouth non stop about how you wouldn't let your neighbors dog ride in an RJ. Do somthing about it! Profess all of your wisdom and expertise to someone who doesn't have your gift. One by one you can make all us dumb sh-t RJ guys so much better pilots.

Agreed and a valid point. I guess what I was trying to say is that the same mistakes, moving the flaps during T.O, aborting after V1, spoilers not coming up ( or did they?) in a Heavy full of fuel and lots of people would have been a much more tragic outcome, they would not have stopped (think huge Fire Ball).

The RJ is a little more forgiving.

Heard of a 767 that landed on a taxiway instead of a runway...just saying S#$t happens to everyone.

The spoilers came up after the abort was initiated as the spoilers come up when you move the thrust levers to idle and are greater than something like 30kts (don't know the number off hand).

Not if they have EMAS.;)

Exactly. Someone is a little full of themselves. This list could go on and on. Of course there are some unprofesional pilots at the regionals, but there are probably just as many at the majors. Anybody who won't admit to that is full of crap. I cringe when I read these reports, but I'm man enough to admit that everyone can make mistakes. If you're too arrogant to try to learn from others mistakes because you think you are too good, then I definitely don't want to be on your airplane. Or probably in your case, ship my package on your airplane. And anyone who has to brag multiple times in one thread that he flys "heavies" is a cheese dick. A freaking jet is a jet when it comes to screwing the pooch.

Agreed. Captain Jacob Veldhuyzen van Zanten thought he was invincible too but his reality check cost 583 lives.

Good example. And he was some chief safety guy at KLM.

I think you two are very wrong. These guys should be fired. They blatantly did not follow procedure, and then the PIC aborted above V1 -- something every pilot is taught not to do unless the aircraft is incapable of flight. And that was not the case here. Thank God for EMAS or this would have been another big black mark against our profession. Those passengers are very lucky these Chatty Kathys didn't kill or injure them.

+1 80ktsClamp ... I do the same thing too.

You need to grow up and stop trying to legitamize aircrew errors/accidents because of the errors made by other aircrew -- even if it happened to a major airline aircrew.

If you don't see or understand the difference between this crew and that of one who had a medical emergency onboard after flying all night for an early morning landing and then suddenly be given a sidestep to a runway with no ALS operating and overshot it and landed on the parallel taxiway ... I think you have some big issues. Clearly you aren't capable of having an honest and intellectual conversation about aviation accidents.

Wow, that's a pretty immature response to BlueMoon's one-sentence post. :confused:

I'm a regional guy and I also think the CA should be either fired or have his flying ability and judgement seriously re-evaluated...

He changed config on the TO roll? WTH? That's way out of bounds...and he did it before V1! He should have just aborted if he was that worried about the config...he could have taxiied back, done the writeup, departed, and filed an asap later.

The TO performance difference between flaps 8 and 20 doesn't matter at all as long as both engines are running! It only comes down to the wire on a V1 cut!

Then he gets a message AFTER V1 and THEN decides to abort...and even so, he took several seconds to cut power!

For those of you who think this could happen to you, you had better re-evaluate how you do business. We are not test pilots here, when confronted with a textbook situation you take the textbook answer: abort below V1, continue after V1.

The only time you are authorized to fully exercise your PIC authority and engineering creativity is when the FE says "there is no procedure for loss of all three hydraulic systems".

I made no editorial comment as to why it happened, just pointed out it did happen. Didn't even compare to the two. Nor did I try to legitimize their errors.

I was simply responding to a poster that specifically stated you don't see incidents with 777, 767, and MD-11 aircraft. The posters comment is simply untrue.

All of us need to learn from the most inexpensive school of all-the mistakes of others. Major or Regional it makes no difference. See and avoid.

Majors have their share of blunders-if you have ever looked at FOQA data you know there are plenty of mistakes for everyone. We can walk away from most of them, but physics does not respect age or experience or pay. It is the one true equal opportunity destroyer.

I heard today from my friend at PSA that the pilots have been fired.

Can anyone confirm?

You need to grow up, and STOP trying to legitimize an error made by major airline flight crew who failed to exercise SOP's, failed to verify/crosscheck, failed to back each other up, failed at CRM, failed to notice there was NOTHING what so ever resembling a runway before they landed.

If you don't understand that a major airline crew can completely screw up and kill people the same as a regional crew can, clearly you aren't capable of having an honest and intellectual conversation about aviation accidents.

But yeah, keep trying to rationalize why people in ATL aren't dead. They were lucky, NOT good.

Who here in an emergency situation is going to accept runway changes from a controller in a situation that has so much potential for error?

Jungle says it best;

My earlier point that it could happen to any of us is this: - WE CAN ALL MAKE MISTAKES. PERIOD. Ok, so yes - the V1 concept is simple. I'll give you that - but do you all REALLY think you can react within a second 100% of the time, at ANY TIME? I'd be willing to bet the only time many of you have dealt with something as critical as a V1 cut is in the sim, when you are expecting it to happen (or have freshly prepared in some manner) I've not flown the CRJ but can anyone confirm when the levers were moved and how long it took for the power decrease sound? Thats just one factor anyway, the big things changing config on TO, and distractions in the cockpit, breaking the routine etc. Normal day, Sick, Tired, bored, conversing? Oh, none of you have ever flown sick, tired, violated sterile cockpit because you're gods gift to aviation...:rolleyes: Maybe I went too far in that statement but you get my point. We ARE human and we CAN screw things up. I don't belive for a second that there is anyone on here who has brought their A game to the cockpit ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the time. I know I havn't. The times that I've not, I've thought to myself, man - that flight didn't go how I wanted it - maybe my descent rate wasn't as spot on as I liked it, maybe I missed a checklist item - analize and see how I can do it better the next time and prevent an "off day" thankfully minor things that I'm aware of, and work hard to fix or prevent. but those of you who really belive you are SO CLOSE to that 100% A game, just thank god you havn't been caught with something out of the ordinary, or a bad situation on that .001% not on your A game day. - Professionals have habits, discipline, and proper training to prevent mishaps - but its NOT foolproof. A safe pilot excersises those things and learns from others to do the best and be the best - but if for one second you think you can't, or won't ever make a potentially major error (some are unnoticed with little consequence, and a fraction of a second can separate routine from disaster - mind you) I don't want myself or any of my family on your airplane. And check your arrogance at the door. End rant.

edit - and I also stick to my guns that while what they did was wrong, I belive in second chances and I would be willing to bet that from now on those two guys will be more saftey consious than some of you who think that it will never happen to you - and would rather fly with them. (provided that they are professional enough to learn from it, eat that humble pie and move on, in a better direction) Which I hope they did.

Seems like you're trying to legitamize the errors of this major crew. Just because there were abnormal things going on does that give them a free pass to not tell the difference between blue lights or white lights? I think not. That could have ended bad too.

If you read the CVR transcript the majority of the personal conversation cited was not a violation of sterile cockpit because it occurred before taxi with the parking brake set. http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation...022/439435.pdf

It should have been deleted from the CVR transcript as non pertinent.

Instead you get spin implying that the crew's violation of sterile cockpit was the cause of the incident.

The NTSB has an agenda which is Senate Bill S.3048.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-3048

That's why you get inflammatory news stories like this.
Transcript: Pilots were musing about sports cars - Yahoo! News

Yes, Their was a violation of sterile cockpit, About 37 seconds worth and that is all that should be included in the transcript.

The real distraction comes from an ATC radio call just as the flaps are set.

Let's get the facts straight here: the 767 on the taxiway had quite the string of problems and a pretty bad case of fatigue before putting it on the taxiway. There had been numerous other attempts to land on the taxiway under those lighting conditions and sidestep conditions, so obviously there were more factors at play. It absolutely doesn't excuse them, but there needs to be an understanding of what happened. There was a major reason they were allowed to keep their jobs. Tower noticed them about to touchdown on the taxiway and let them land there after scanning and checking for anyone on the taxiway. That alone is a bit scary.... anyhoo....



Now then, this PSA crew displayed a significant lack of procedural maturity. There is some understandable shock involved in the post wreck stuff, but leading up to that point, come on! Just on the takeoff roll: 1. moving the flaps on the takeoff roll after realizing there is an error. 2. not understanding that when you take the flaps inbetween settings the config alarm is going to go off. 3. going against the hundreds of lives already lost in high speed aborts and aborting WELL above V1.



As far as performance stuff, it is very very simple to not jack up variable flaps settings... we use 5, 15, and 20 on the 767 and 757. About 80% of the time we use Flaps 5 which produces V-speeds in excess of CRJ flaps 8 speeds. The book procedure is on the salute to select the flaps setting from the data, and then during the checklists verify lever position and indication.

For technique augmenting our required procedure, on the checklist call I point to the data for the flaps setting, move to the indicator and verify, and then physically grasp the handle and verify it's position again. We do that check twice- once in the taxi checklist and once in the before takeoff. You use that technique combined with the double checks and you will never jack up the flaps setting.

The reason for the double checks are both the NW MD-80 back in 1986 and the DL 727 in DFW in 1987. Let's respect the dead and not make the same mistakes that have already killed hundreds....

Your song Popular was pretty good but this could be the single most ludacris statement I've ever read on these message boards...and thats sayin ALOT. You have to have some serious brass to spout off a comment like that. Your total and utter complacency scares me to death.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNc45FTenhg

A string of problems that could have been prevented. Which STILL begs the question, when exactly did the third, as well as required crew member become ill?

The point was made in another thread by another poster. There have been crews facing a hell of lot more problems than the DAL crew did. You know, fire, imminent structural failure, etc.They still managed to put on the actual runway.