Ya I agree, DOH would probably benefit XJT as our newest hires are like 05/06 and most are 98-04. As for three way combo, larger airlines are more efficient by their very nature, so SKY staying out and ASA being run in Atlanta will probably hurt SKY. If you listened to the conference call it was all about re-fleeting XJT so I think that is were the jets are going to go once CAL pilot get paid off to give up their seat scope.

If talking about newhires/hire dates/hire dates, XJT has as of the last seniority 07/2007 hires actively flying, the rest are still on furlough. That'll be changing though with 48 additional recalls. However, all recall may not be junior to that person as there are some senior on bypass.

I have no freaking idea why people are getting so hung up on DOH. Unless BOTH sides agree to it, it CAN'T happen.

BINGO!! Some people seem to forget or ignore this. DOH ain't gonna happen folks. It'll most likely be a percentage method.

I agree it is going to be a percentage with gates method, no one is going to get totally screwed, 1-3% each way. ALPA doesn't want DOH either, it would set a terrible precedent for them. The national guys are going to work hard to make this work so everyone can at least live with the list. We are going to be a big group in ALPA and nobody wants another US Airways, ALPA can't afford to lose another 5000 pilots. There is a combined DOH list posted on the Pipe in the cockpit section, really wasn't that bad from what I could see!

They already have!! Eagle!!!

Speaking of which, is ALPA going to put the combined group in Group A or will they change the rules at this October's BOD to keep the regional trash out of the big boys cigar and scotch club? I suspect the later.

5000 pilots shorter indeed if that happens.

And it seems to me that DOH might actually be the solution since it is give or take. Some ASA pilots prosper, some XJET pilots prosper. Relative seniority will be a cluster. Let the lawsuits begin if that happens.

Relative seniority is the much more likely scenario. It's highely unlikely DOH will happen. Basically both of the respective NC's would have to sell out their pilot groups. DOH has way too much inconsistency throughout the group, and relative seniority keeps everyone within the same area on the new seniority list. Also, if the method is agreed upon by the NC's lawsuits are a waste of time and $$$. Just ask UsAir. If the NC's agree to a binding arbitration, everyone is stuck with the result, hence the binding part.

Merge list's by DOH and us EV FO's will riot...

Based on what? Precedent at legacy carriers? Regionals are a whole different ball game. You must consider time to upgrade, base choice and commuting. Most regional pilots still plan to move on. Most legacy carriers are at their destination. At the legacy, they can trade a number for long term career expectations. As a regional you're there for the short term and your number on the list determines when you can upgrade, get your pic time and move on. So it doesn't matter if your % stays the same if 300 pilots hired into the industry after you get to upgrade before you.

HOW'D THAT WORK OUT FOR US AIR AGAIN?!!!! Last I checked, they reversed Nic and won. Not to mention dumping ALPO. Duh.

ASA FOs would be screwed by relative % too. Think about how it will extend their upgrade time.

But if they want to riot they're welcome to. What will they do, refuse the airplanes? Go on a write up campaign? Lol...

[edit:delete flamebait / insult] First of all it doesn't matter what you or I want. It's called ALPA merger policy, you don't get to chose the method, you vote on the result, and if that doesn't work then an arbitrator will determine the outcome using....that's right you said it....ALPA merger policy, which post US-AWA fiasco, now includes everything in the mix as to not benefit one group significantly more than the other.

If you would like I can post the merger policy for you. By the way, in order to produce an awful result like what the US east pilots did, you'd need a majority...[edit:delete flamebait / insult]

[edit:delete quoted flamebait / insult]

The US Airways thing was unique, over 1/2 the pilots at US Airways were on furlough, a number larger than total pilots at AWA as I remember, so what did they expect to happen when they stapled that many pilots, many with 14-15 years of seniority, below AWA new hires with 1-2 years sen. When all those guys got recalled they conducted a revolution and ditched ALPA, that is not going to happen here, nothing like that is even close to happening here.

Well first of all, many people are considering making a career out of regionals. Secondly, DOH will not be fair and equitable for everyone in both pilot groups. Relative seniority keeps you in the same percentage on a combined list. Due to differences beyond each pilot groups control, hiring waves a each airline were different, and so there are different gaps in seniority at each airline. You personally may benefit by DOH, but many others will suffer, including fellow pilots from ASA. As I said before, DOH is highly unlikely because the ONLY way it will happen is if BOTH respective NC's agree to it. I guarantee that won't happen.

Secondly, why don't you show me the single seniority list for UsAir/America West? The only one I know of is the Nicolau Award. That is still the controlling list, & it was not thrown out. The only thing that USAPA has gotten it's pilots is millions of more $$$ in fees, & years of wasted time/lost wages due to selfishly fighting the binding arbitration they agreed to. They are costing their own pilots millions of $$$, keeping them on separate contracts, & continuing their pilots BK wages. It seems like a good move so far. :rolleyes:

You're forgetting, it's ALSO unique because it was BEFORE McCaskill.

Okay okay, we get it -- you're a Captain and the rest of us are just here to sling your gear.

If an integration based on DOH didn't benefit you personally, would you still claim it was so likely to happen?

Uh... ok.

Yes. I firmly believe it's the only fair way for a regional merger. And there isn't a whole lot of precedent for a regional merger of this size, now is there? The ALPA template isn't going to work this time.

Figure of speach Commander Tony. Upgrade time is going to be long without growth regardless of how the list is merged.

Nevermind.....

May take a few years but upgrading is going to matter less and less in the future anyway. Good to have it, but not a show-stopper if you don't. Too much may even hurt your chances if you want to go to a major in the future. They don't want new FOs who think they know how to be a captain better than the captain.

We see it already. Delta is taking more FO's from SkyWest than Captains..............

What if we were merging with Comair or Eagle instead of Xjet?

Are the FOs female?

Seriously, I have NO idea what's so hard to understand;

If if comes down to it, and none of the three sides can agree to an integration, can you show us ANYWHERE in the McCaskill bond that requires a precedent?

That's a serious question, I haven't read the whole thing. Which is more than can be said for LOTS of other people discussing this topic.

Do you even know what the "ALPA template" consists of now that there's been changes?

I know of at least three guys who were hired at Delta last month with less than 100 hrs PIC, new regime is looking at the total experience of the pilot.

and...
 

So what did the experience?

Ex-Military?

The guy one number ahead of me at SkyWest went to Delta. No airline PIC, but Navy S3 pilot. That was 3 years ago.

Yes, true, all three are Air Force Reserve heavy pilots, but had little if any AF PIC time. With four internal recs.

Airlines also know that they can trap a pilot with no PIC in today's market. I know several furloughed pilots with little or no turbine PIC who can't get an interview at many places because of that requirement. Not to say Delta is doing this, but they may. Endless reserve and a commute attached to it for the new hires? (just speculating, but it appears that way.) Saves on training if your bottom guy catching all the junior flak doesn't have the option to go somewhere else. Just a thought. No Delta bashing here. I'd fly for them. Just my take on their hiring pilots without the vaunted PIC everyone else requires.

That would explain it. What a deal for those guys, government pension and now a job at Delta. Only doing the regional dance for a couple of years. I am jealous.

That will be for an arbitrator to decide.

That is perfectly acceptable to me!

And what is your culture at your regional that is so special that you lump all other pilots in the category of they don't have your culture? As for seniority, I'm positive everyone will end up +/- 1-2% of their original seniority. And no one will be displaced from their aircraft, seat or base since that will cost tons of money in training and moving expenses. There will be fences and once the fences come down, you will only be able to bid into vacancies. As for whipsaw, didn't your airline take some 700s from ASA during their contract negotiations? Anyways, XJT has already been whipsawed by JA so don't tell me there has never been whipsaw!

I've read that SKW took aircraft from ASA during their contract negotiations, which is probably why the MEC felt compelled to negotiate for language to protect against that in the future. I wonder how much the pilots gave up for that? And why is it that only pilots from one company get furloughed while the other one doesn't? How is that fair? SKW has already whipsawed XJT and decimated us.

We've had both an ONT and LAX bases and they were both the most junior bases out of the six we had. All new hires got sent to those two bases.

I hope they run rather than to keep trying to trample over our contract. The reality is that JA wants to have two lists for one reason and that reason is not for the benefit of the pilots on either list!

They are meeting with JA this week and give him their position. There have been a couple of other blastmails that are more specific.

I don't mind fighting the battle for you guys and falling on my sword. Someone has to put their foot down and then maybe other will join. With that said, if it was just as easy to pick up the pieces in a couple of years, the geniuses in St. George would have taken that plan. The fact of the matter is that we have great value for SKW or anyone else including CAL. There is a reason why SKW is trying to buy us again. And if it comes to being liquidated, so be it. I rather do that than to continue enabling not only mainline management but now regional management to whipsaw us and cheer our race to the bottom.

JA is trying to trample thee most important part of our contract. If not this battle, then which one? Don't fall for the trick that we are too expensive. I don't get paid nearly enough for what I do. And giving JA two lists to play with only puts more downward pressure on our wages. Why would we willingly give him that tool?

I've got my lifeboat and it doesn't have SKW name on it.

If JA would treat us with dignity and respect by honoring our contract, you would get 2600 happy pilots. Otherwise he will get what he paid for.

This is for the lawyers to fight it out. But if not this battle, which battle will ever be more worth the fight?

And you would deny us pulling in the same direction as the best tactic under the Skywest umbrella? We have no patience for the learning curve of 1600 pilots to come in who don't get that.

I guess that's the price to pay for the CAL incumbency your management seems to treasure so much. ;)

It didn't get overturned. The court said that the case isn't ripe yet so the DFR lawsuit that AWA won still stands.


We don't get to vote on SLI.

Isn't it ironic that its mostly regional guys that give the mainline pilots for selling out scope but once you have a regional pilot group that is willing to fight for their scope, we have other regional pilots say things like, you should play nice, or cut your nose off to spite your face, or this is your lifeboat, or go ahead and fall on your sword, etc etc.

They(XJT pilot group) did once. That's why they aren't part of Skywest yet. The funny thing is you keep saying Skywest doesn't want XJT because they're a money losing operation and nobody wants their 50 seaters, yet here Skywest is trying to buy XJT AGAIN for a second time.

Amazing, isn't it?

Good point. It's no secret, XJT's financials don't look good. But the amount of equity XJT is going to bring to the table is quite considerable.

It would take SKY 5-7 years to create what XJT has at CAL, not to mention $100 millions to re-create 90% of XJT's in- festructure. There not going to walk, even if he has to integrate. He just got all this for $44 million when you take XJT's 90 million in the bank. I love how people think JA is loyal to SKY over all else, he is loyal only to $$$$[edit:deleted language] I am convinced he never went away from 3 years ago, he just waited while CAL bleed us to death and got it for half the 08 price. Guy is a about business, not pilot groups!!!

Not to mention he has a 10 year deal to control 70% of the flying at UAL that only goes into effect if the deal closes. Your on drugs if you think he is going to walk over integrating 20% of his pilots with the other 80%. CAL doesn't want to have to recreate XJT, they just hated the old management and wanted a new operator who was more predictable.

SKY will be Union in five years anyway!

Thats what people said also about AWAC and ACA.

Apples to oranges. The game has changed dramatically since then. Fee for Departure contracts where the Legacy takes all the risk are becoming less and less. The Legacys are now forcing the Regionals to take on more risk. They are no longer buying all their fuel and ordering hundreds of RJs. The growth that was experienced allowed ACA's feed to be replaced. That growth has come to a screeching halt, which is exactly why regionals are scrambling to buy each other. The pie is shrinking.

I'm not sure that's correct. During the earnings call Brad Rich was asked if the new 10 year CPA was a condition to the purchase of XJT, to which he responded no. That could mean that ASA still has a new CPA with Continental even if this deal falls through.

$108 in cash and restricted cash

I don't remember that. In fact, they did say that this deal is not contingent on the UAL/CAL merger.