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SKW/XJT/ASA fleet bases, merger concerns
Not trying to fan flames here, just floating possible scenarios we may face if this merger goes through.
IAH is going to be United's largest hub. United is most likely going to want most of the RJs going in there to be larger than 50 seats at some point. ORD will be second largest. Same story there, along with IAD and EWR. I would guess the majority of the 50 seat ops would be sent to thinner markets out west where airport capacity isn't as jammed up as it is in the east half of the country. So as XJT's fleet and ASA's CRJ2s enters the waning years, they will start to get sent west out of the IAH/ORD/IAD/EWR service area and into the LAX/SFO/SEA/DEN area. I think this will happen if SKW is one list or ASA and SKW are kept separate. Crews will not be retrained in new aircraft to prevent pilots from losing their domicile. I guess what I mean is, if you're a 70/90 seat CRJ pilot, you may face displacement east into IAH, EWR, IAD, and ORD. If you're a 50 seat or less pilot with whichever division, you have a greater chance of keeping your (west) base, or being displaced west (XJT/ASA 50-seat guys). Just an observation because it sounds like a lot of SKW guys are worried about losing their base in a merger. I think it just depends on which fleet you are on, and there may be little anyone can do in the future when United decides what they want and where. I think there may be a LOT of unhappy XJT guys getting sent where they don't want to go if the fleet allocation follows what I think is likely to happen, and are not allowed to maintain domicile by switching aircraft. Anyway, just another example of how SKW pilots are invloved in all this along with ASA and XJT. If you are going to be flying United pax, you are pretty involved. I don't know, which is cheaper, retraining crews for different planes or paying moving expenses? Does SKW cover moving expenses if your base is sent elsewhere? (OK, maybe that's flamebait). |
I believe when ATL opened for SkyWest Airlines, they did pay some token moving expense. To put that in perspective, Emirates pays $48,000 if you wan to buy a house in base.
Moderator note: PLEASE think before posting on this thread. Don't attack the messenger, debate the issue. |
I think the OP is WAAAY putting the cart before the horse. It assumes that SkyWest will be part of the merger, and as of now it isn't. I'd wager that XJET's odds of enforcing their scope to a three way is remote at best, and even if that does happen, you're forecasting something 10 years down the road! (10 year capacity agreement with UAL as part of this deal). The airlines have repeatedly proven that they can't reliably plan ahead more than 6 months.
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Interesting theory... I think it's more likely than you think. SkyW is already seeing a little bit of this on the Delta side. Quite a few of our 900's are in and out of MSP all day despite it being a very small operation for us with no pilot domicile. So the idea the future United will want 70 ops in IAH is by no means outrageous. Something about SkyW, you are apparently unaware of.... We have no 70/90 dedicated crews. Every RJ pilot is qualified (or at least quickly qualified via line check) to fly every RJ. In your scenario obviously we wouldn't be able to fly the EMB if they moved them west, but we could still fly all the 200's.
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I agree that many of our west coast guys are concerned about their very senior west coast base, however I think they'd be just fine. I'm not sure how many ultra senior ASA/XJT pilots desire to live in California. I do think the SLC concerns are valid given that it used to be a base for ASA. I am more concerned with my junior base, ORD. It's a lot closer to the ASA/XJT hubs, and any commuter to those airlines who either lives in the north, or might get a better schedule with the drastically larger base in comparison to what XJT has now, might bump me down or take an upgrade. It's really great for me to live in a base that most senior SkyWest pilots are allergic to and wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. In the merger I think that base would turn into EWR. For my curiosity, does anyone at ASA or XJT know what overall percentage captain has fallen to? It's around 67% for the bottom 5-10 RJ captains in ORD. (And before anyone mentions it, yes I am familiar with fences, etc... this is just my personal merger concern.)
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Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 855256)
I agree that many of our west coast guys are concerned about their very senior west coast base, however I think they'd be just fine. I'm not sure how many ultra senior ASA/XJT pilots desire to live in California. I do think the SLC concerns are valid given that it used to be a base for ASA. I am more concerned with my junior base, ORD. It's a lot closer to the ASA/XJT hubs, and any commuter to those airlines who either lives in the north, or might get a better schedule with the drastically larger base in comparison to what XJT has now, might bump me down or take an upgrade. It's really great for me to live in a base that most senior SkyWest pilots are allergic to and wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. In the merger I think that base would turn into EWR. For my curiosity, does anyone at ASA or XJT know what overall percentage captain has fallen to? It's around 67% for the bottom 5-10 RJ captains in ORD. (And before anyone mentions it, yes I am familiar with fences, etc... this is just my personal merger concern.)
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Originally Posted by Nevets
(Post 855268)
When XJT had an ONT and LAX base, they went very junior. In fact, ORD is very junior as well. All three of those bases were or are the junior bases. The most junior captain is 51% and is ORD based.
Still interested in knowing where Captain falls at ASA... I admit to being surprised by the 51%. |
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 855154)
I think the OP is WAAAY putting the cart before the horse. It assumes that SkyWest will be part of the merger, and as of now it isn't. I'd wager that XJET's odds of enforcing their scope to a three way is remote at best, and even if that does happen, you're forecasting something 10 years down the road! (10 year capacity agreement with UAL as part of this deal). The airlines have repeatedly proven that they can't reliably plan ahead more than 6 months.
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Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 855281)
Thanks Nevets, that helps alleviate my QOL concern as a F/O, but it does indicate that the majority of XJT pilots care about upgrade more than where they want to live or the schedule they might get. I know this is extremely simplified, but that's 16% of the XJT list that would be senior to the junior SkyWest captain and also hasn't yet had a chance to upgrade. All of whom, in theory, would take the upgrade before it got back down to the same point on the list it already is at SkyWest. That's roughly, not including ASA, about 390 pilots. If assuming ASA has similar numbers, it shoots up to 650 pilots that meet that criterium. To put it in perspective, 16% of the skywest list is 430 pilots. Yet there are only about 100 pilots senior to 67% that currently have a bid in for Chicago as a Capt. I recognize a 7000 pilot list has a lot of advantages, but I think if you look at these numbers objectively you have to admit any SkyWest pilot based in Chicago stands to lose quite a bit of ground in the combined pilot group.
Still interested in knowing where Captain falls at ASA... I admit to being surprised by the 51%. Keep in mind that whatever happens, no one will be able to bump anyone from their seat, base, or aircraft. People will only be able to bid in to vacancies. I'm almost sure of this. It will cost way to much in training and moving expenses. |
Originally Posted by CaptainNameless
(Post 855338)
No. Not assuming SKW will be part of the merger at all. The point is, Skywest pilots WILL be subject to the SKW Inc. total fleet (ASA+XJT+SKW+yet-to-be named-acquisitions) being completely reshuffled among the new/old United hubs in a way that may not be what Skywest pilots have in mind about how they hope the future unfolds. The point is, unless I am missing something, the total Inc. fleet will be allocated as Inc. intends in order to service the new merged United, and that could be a very different future than the present picture. Skywest Airlines is a part of that fleet plan merger or not. That's all. 10 year CPA doesn't stipulate where any of those airplanes will be operated. Could be anywhere in the United system where United wants them, so the comment is regarding the most logical placement of the RJ fleet in terms of aircraft seating capacity. Higher capacity hubs=bigger airplanes. Lower capacity hubs=smaller airplanes. More like 2-3 years, not 10 years down the road.
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Originally Posted by Slaphappy
(Post 855454)
give it a rest, skw isn't part of the merger and never will be. You'll take it to court and lose.
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Originally Posted by CaptainNameless
(Post 855338)
No. Not assuming SKW will be part of the merger at all. The point is, Skywest pilots WILL be subject to the SKW Inc. total fleet (ASA+XJT+SKW+yet-to-be named-acquisitions) being completely reshuffled among the new/old United hubs in a way that may not be what Skywest pilots have in mind about how they hope the future unfolds. The point is, unless I am missing something, the total Inc. fleet will be allocated as Inc. intends in order to service the new merged United, and that could be a very different future than the present picture. Skywest Airlines is a part of that fleet plan merger or not. That's all. 10 year CPA doesn't stipulate where any of those airplanes will be operated. Could be anywhere in the United system where United wants them, so the comment is regarding the most logical placement of the RJ fleet in terms of aircraft seating capacity. Higher capacity hubs=bigger airplanes. Lower capacity hubs=smaller airplanes. More like 2-3 years, not 10 years down the road.
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I really don't get why all the SkyWest pilots are gloating over the fact that the lists will never be combined. So I'll take it that you all WANT the whipsaw to happen? Really? This industry is truly screwed.
[edit: delete flamebait] |
Originally Posted by Jetlinker
(Post 855488)
I really don't get why all the SkyWest pilots are gloating over the fact that the lists will never be combined. So I'll take it that you all WANT the whipsaw to happen? Really? This industry is truly screwed.
[edit: delete flamebait] Fortunately, there are many level heads over there who are not as content to keep their heads buried in the sand. |
Originally Posted by Jetlinker
(Post 855488)
I really don't get why all the SkyWest pilots are gloating over the fact that the lists will never be combined. So I'll take it that you all WANT the whipsaw to happen? Really? This industry is truly screwed.
[edit: delete flamebait] [edit: delete flamebait] |
Originally Posted by Jetlinker
(Post 855488)
I really don't get why all the SkyWest pilots are gloating over the fact that the lists will never be combined. So I'll take it that you all WANT the whipsaw to happen? Really? This industry is truly screwed.
[edit: delete flamebait]. I see benefits in one list as well as some negatives as well. For those advocating one list what negatives do you see? Are there none? Seniority for holding west coast domiciles is a big one that I see. The SkyWest pilot group has a lot to lose there. We've got a lot of west coast commuters to ORD, DEN and SLC, many have been waiting for years to get a transfer into California. Merging with anyone else would seriously hurt those pilots chances of ever getting based out west. I'd venture to say there are a lot more pilots wanting into SkyWest domiciles than SkyWest pilots wanting into ATL, IAH, or EWR. The one SkyWest pilot that I've heard pushing for one list lives in ATL, I can see how that benefits him. Again on the whipsaw. ASA has a better contract than we do and have been getting the growth. |
Originally Posted by CaptainNameless
(Post 855338)
No. Not assuming SKW will be part of the merger at all. The point is, Skywest pilots WILL be subject to the SKW Inc. total fleet (ASA+XJT+SKW+yet-to-be named-acquisitions) being completely reshuffled among the new/old United hubs in a way that may not be what Skywest pilots have in mind about how they hope the future unfolds. The point is, unless I am missing something, the total Inc. fleet will be allocated as Inc. intends in order to service the new merged United, and that could be a very different future than the present picture. Skywest Airlines is a part of that fleet plan merger or not. That's all. 10 year CPA doesn't stipulate where any of those airplanes will be operated. Could be anywhere in the United system where United wants them, so the comment is regarding the most logical placement of the RJ fleet in terms of aircraft seating capacity. Higher capacity hubs=bigger airplanes. Lower capacity hubs=smaller airplanes. More like 2-3 years, not 10 years down the road.
Originally Posted by Slaphappy
(Post 855454)
give it a rest, skw isn't part of the merger and never will be. You'll take it to court and lose.
Well I'd say that will be up to a judge. |
Originally Posted by CaptainNameless
(Post 855125)
Not trying to fan flames here, just floating possible scenarios we may face if this merger goes through.
IAH is going to be United's largest hub. United is most likely going to want most of the RJs going in there to be larger than 50 seats at some point. ORD will be second largest. Same story there, along with IAD and EWR. I would guess the majority of the 50 seat ops would be sent to thinner markets out west where airport capacity isn't as jammed up as it is in the east half of the country. So as XJT's fleet and ASA's CRJ2s enters the waning years, they will start to get sent west out of the IAH/ORD/IAD/EWR service area and into the LAX/SFO/SEA/DEN area. I think this will happen if SKW is one list or ASA and SKW are kept separate. Crews will not be retrained in new aircraft to prevent pilots from losing their domicile. I guess what I mean is, if you're a 70/90 seat CRJ pilot, you may face displacement east into IAH, EWR, IAD, and ORD. If you're a 50 seat or less pilot with whichever division, you have a greater chance of keeping your (west) base, or being displaced west (XJT/ASA 50-seat guys). No, that's not how it will work. I don't know where you came up with the idea that the airline can move the aircraft and not give the crews a chance to retrain on a different aircraft. If I am displaced I then have the option of bidding any seat my seniority can hold. Just an observation because it sounds like a lot of SKW guys are worried about losing their base in a merger. I think it just depends on which fleet you are on, and there may be little anyone can do in the future when United decides what they want and where. I think there may be a LOT of unhappy XJT guys getting sent where they don't want to go if the fleet allocation follows what I think is likely to happen, and are not allowed to maintain domicile by switching aircraft. Anyway, just another example of how SKW pilots are invloved in all this along with ASA and XJT. If you are going to be flying United pax, you are pretty involved. I don't know, which is cheaper, retraining crews for different planes or paying moving expenses? Does SKW cover moving expenses if your base is sent elsewhere? (OK, maybe that's flamebait). |
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 855530)
Well I'd say that will be up to a judge.
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Originally Posted by amcnd
(Post 855650)
True. And if the judge says yes all 3.. "Inc." will run from the offer as fast as they can. I think ASA/XJT pilots need to focus on reality.....
Has anyone seen dealbreakers? Is the sale already done? I'm just wondering if 'Inc' could just bail out on the deal if the judge ruled in XE pilot's favor. |
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 855661)
Perhaps they will....but that will not stop XE pilots from supporting it going to court. They have the clause in their contract for a reason. I know they're willing to take the risk. Will it be their demise? No one really knows, and only time will tell.
Has anyone seen dealbreakers? Is the sale already done? I'm just wondering if 'Inc' could just bail out on the deal if the judge ruled in XE pilot's favor. The only release I've seen says it must result in a "profitable airline, must honor the current CBA which benefits all pilots, and there must be a fair and equitable seniority list integration." It doesn't expressly say that the integration must be with all three airlines, and it doesn't expressly mention their scope clause. I would think if they planned on challenging it, they'd make a more specific mention of it. Any XJT guys talk to their MEC about it? Is this going to court? |
ASA pilots got a memo from our MEC that XJET plans to challenge it.
I hope they do. And I further hope the judge rules in favor of a three way merger. And I further hope that (as many have predicted, and as they did before) SKW, Inc. drops the whole deal to keep the SkyWest side non union (they will). As I said before, let the Nevetsses of the group fall on their swords. In a couple of years, we will pick up the pieces for pennies on the dollar. XJET lost HOW much money last quarter? At first I was just hoping we could hold the XJET pilots back, but it's become apparent that they aren't as strong as I thought. They don't know how to pick their battles. It is NOT a good idea to pick a fight with Jerry Atkin, and it is NOT a good idea to make your contract so expensive that no one can afford to hire you! I'm starting to become more convinced every day that this IS a lifeboat for them, and I may join the growing chorus of many, many ASA pilots demanding DOH for our pilots or nothing. And I am hearing rumors that a recall is going to be proposed at the August LEC meeting for all of the current ASA MEC members. Waiting in the wings to take their places are some real hardliners who would not settle for anything less than DOH. So keep up the whining. It's gotten old. We'll see what happens. |
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 855703)
I hope they do. And I further hope the judge rules in favor of a three way merger.
Whether one list or two, there will be separate SKW and ASA airlines, like RAH. One thing no one on either side has mentioned....isn't it possible for a final court decision to happen AFTER the transaction is completed in December? Then your "blowing the deal because you fought for scope" scenario goes out the window. Any decent lawyer should be able to drag this out so the merger is completed regardless. |
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 855703)
Waiting in the wings to take their places are some real hardliners who would not settle for anything less than DOH.
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 855703)
So keep up the whining. It's gotten old. We'll see what happens.
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Originally Posted by Utah
(Post 855521)
Just what is this "whipsaw" you are talking about? Maybe you could provide some examples of such between the SkyWest and ASA pilot groups over the last 3 years or so.
I see benefits in one list as well as some negatives as well. For those advocating one list what negatives do you see? Are there none? Seniority for holding west coast domiciles is a big one that I see. The SkyWest pilot group has a lot to lose there. We've got a lot of west coast commuters to ORD, DEN and SLC, many have been waiting for years to get a transfer into California. Merging with anyone else would seriously hurt those pilots chances of ever getting based out west. I'd venture to say there are a lot more pilots wanting into SkyWest domiciles than SkyWest pilots wanting into ATL, IAH, or EWR. The one SkyWest pilot that I've heard pushing for one list lives in ATL, I can see how that benefits him. Again on the whipsaw. ASA has a better contract than we do and have been getting the growth. And as far as ASA's contract goes.....you can't compare because you don't have a real contract. You and your fellow SkyWest pilots have been riding on the coattails of hard fought ALPA contracts. |
Originally Posted by Utah
(Post 855471)
You have to take into consideration that where we are based at SkyWest plays only somewhat on where we actually fly. A large number of the four day trips leave the domicile on the first leg and don't come back till the last. You have ORD crews doing California flying, SLC crews spending the entire trip in MSP and so on. Even when we were doing hub stuff for Delta out of DFW years ago we never opened a base, lots of aircraft and crews just going down there four days at a time. Same thing with ATL, even though we had a domicile there for a while, most of the flying was being done by SLC crews. SFO and LAX have only been domiciles for two years, yet we've been flying RJs in and out for over 10. The same thing could happen with any shift of the 700s for United/CAL.
1. You'll be fenced into your domiciles/equipment for several years anyways. 2. When the fences come down no one will be forced out of their base. You would be able to only bid on vacancies to switch bases. 3. The bulk of the ASA/XJT group, and nearly all of the senior CA's live east of the Rockies. 4. Nothing is preventing your guys from being displaced anyways if SKW Inc decides to allocate some flying to ASA on the west coast. "New United" could equal "New Fleet Plan." How many bases has SKW closed and opened in the last 2 years? |
Originally Posted by Slaphappy
(Post 855507)
There is no whipsaw and there never has been one. I've said before ASA has gotten more aicraft in th past 2 years than skywest.
As for whipsaw, refer to: http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/re...tml#post853613 As I've said, it's a lot easier to claim no whipsaw when you're not being hurt by it. |
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Originally Posted by blastoff
(Post 855734)
Well then, I hope you're senior, because a DOH list integration would favor junior XJT pilots and senior ASA pilots. ALPA merger policy applies, so it won't happen.
Originally Posted by blastoff
(Post 855734)
You say that about a pilot group fighting to enforce it's contract? Sounds like you'll be first in line to vote for concessions next time SKW comes asking.
We at ASA learned the hard way that pulling in the same direction is the best tactic under the SkyWest umbrella. We have no patience for the learning curve of 2800 pilots to come in who don't get that. |
DOH would benefit me too. Let's raise a glass. But it ain't gonna happen.
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 855787)
More crap put out by ALPA's finest lawyers!
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 855787)
Now, it's looking less and less worth it, because I think we're buying a list of pilots who will be unhappy no matter what.
I know you like to keep emphasizing that you're doing the buying. That's fine, but has no bearing on SLI. |
Originally Posted by blastoff
(Post 855792)
I think you are too easy to discount the fact that most XJT pilots are ready to move on from the broken promises of the once great XJT. ASA is a good company and you seem to like your CEO, so most guys are keeping it in perspective. This deal will go through and I think most will be happy with it no matter what the list looks like.
I know you like to keep emphasizing that you're doing the buying. That's fine, but has no bearing on SLI. |
Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 855703)
And I am hearing rumors that a recall is going to be proposed at the August LEC meeting for all of the current ASA MEC members. Waiting in the wings to take their places are some real hardliners who would not settle for anything less than DOH. So keep up the whining. It's gotten old. We'll see what happens.
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Originally Posted by Captain Tony
(Post 855787)
I am. I'll move UP 7% in DOH. I'll move down ~2% with relative, depending on the formula. But I was prepared to eat that for the sake of getting a combined list of 4000 happy pilots. Now, it's looking less and less worth it, because I think we're buying a list of pilots who will be unhappy no matter what.
Not likely. I am actually one of ASA's hardliners, but am wise enough to know when to pick my battles and when not to. Your scope clause isn't worth the paper it's written on, because you forgot to include the eventuality of a subsidiary buying you. Oops! Thanks for playing. More crap put out by ALPA's finest lawyers! We at ASA learned the hard way that pulling in the same direction is the best tactic under the SkyWest umbrella. We have no patience for the learning curve of 2800 pilots to come in who don't get that. Second, you aren't buying anyone. ASA is buying XJT, you as a pilot aren't involved in the purchase. You'll be effected by the purchase, but you're not buying anyone. Thirdly, if the scope clause ain't worth jack then why did Jerry back out last time? It is possible that a judge will side with XJT ALPAs interpretation. Never say never. You may find yourself eating crow. |
The government won't LET you do DOH. :cool:
If you fight against it... you might have to learn about: McCaskill-Bond Try as you might, you're not going to staple if the lists merge. And if you fight hard enough to get it to arbitration, you might not like the results either... so it seems like playing fair if the XJT guys have the scope clause in their contract work would be the best way to go... It'd be real embarrassing to be a regional with labor strife a la US-Airways/America West |
Tony,
You sound like management. 1) Management can afford to pay us a respectable wage. Dont buy into the propaganda. 2) I dont think you ever wanted this merger from the beginning. You and Slaphappy have been confrontational in every single thread so far. 3) always remember that you are managements puppit. They buy other companies and we fly the airplanes. \ 4) A contract violation is a contract violation. What good is a contract if no one wants to uphold it. It is a negotiation and just to roll over on this issue and relinquish any bargaining power we might have is completely asinine. 5) Supporting a DOH integration is about as short sighted as you can get. Sure you and a small percentage might gain a few percentage points but you are collectively throwing your junior guys under the bus. XJT did a lot of hiring (80 pilots a month) from 04-07. In my example a % integration would mean i would move back 200 #'s and slide back 5 months doh. So sure you might want a DOH list but it is illegal, a horrible idea for 60-70% of your own pilot list, and is a perfect example of the selfish "i got mine" attitude that has plaqued our profession. So please go ahead and try and recall your MEC because you wanted a DOH list! You will get laughed out of the room or lynched by the junior pilots. Lets all just take a deep breath and see what our unions come up with. This COULD benefit everybody involved. We want one list across three companies or we want iron clad protections in our contract to prevent the whipshaw... it is that simple. As for the lifeboat comment, well it isnt much of a "lifeboat" if theres a guy plugging a hole threatening you with drowning. |
Heres a question for the ASA guys:
What is ASA's company policy on outside flying? I fly charter on the side and make it work with my schedule. I have yet to run into legality conflicts or schedule issues but I am curious if anybody has any similar experiences. |
Originally Posted by newarkblows
(Post 856402)
Heres a question for the ASA guys:
What is ASA's company policy on outside flying? I fly charter on the side and make it work with my schedule. I have yet to run into legality conflicts or schedule issues but I am curious if anybody has any similar experiences. |
Originally Posted by sweptback
(Post 855986)
If you're going to recall the reps, you have to do it right. Showing up at the meeting and demanding a recall is not doing it right.
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I am a junior guy at ASA. A DOH integration would drop me 7% and put me below every furlough except 2. Like others have said its probably illegal to do a DOH, but if it DID happen I believe, and I feel most other junior guys would as well, all hell would break loose at ASA from the junior guys revolting
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[QUOTE=cencal83406;856212]The government won't LET you do DOH. :cool:
If you fight against it... you might have to learn Learn what... Ask Eagle pilots about DOH!!! DOH is real and alive.... |
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