Ha I wouldn't trust any promise from TSH management. We all know that Hulas will play Compass against GoJet against TSA to get the lowest rates he can. If that doesn't satisfy him, he'll start another alter ego.

Makes me happy I'm not associated with any of those 3 companies and sorry for anyone who is.

XJT flys a ton of these long hall legs, IAH Toronto is blocked at almost 4 hrs, it is ridiculous, I cannot imagine buying a ticket and showing up to sit in a 145 for 4 hrs. My in-laws avoided CAL when they went on vacation last year because almost all of their Mexico operation is done by XJT 145's. Actually XJT is the largest airline operating in Mexico according to the web site?

The chest beating press release claiming they're taking back the RJs is code for "scope is for sale but the price will be HIGH".

Only the most ardent ALPA kool-aid drinker could take it at face value.

Feeling threatened?? :D

No. Re-read my post. Ain't gonna happen unless mainline is willing to undercut the regionals on the equipment.

Or unless mainline intends to staple all current regional pilots. Also ain't gonna happen.

I don't think the undercutting is a problem. There are furloughed guys flying right seat of the RJ/Brasilia right now(Jets 4 Jobs) for horrible pay so that's no big deal. Just take the same pay rates. Done.


I think they're more then willing to do this. The obvious fight would be from lifers at the regionals. But it's not their flying. It belongs to mainline, and so will most of the jets.

New UAL will own/control leases on 60% the jets being flown by its regionals. If this did happen it would be bad for RJ lifer's! Personally I would take 2nd year pay at Delta/SWA/UAL over 7 RJ Capt pay any day, its sad people think $85 an hour is a decent wage in this industry, that's what my Dad was paid to sit at the panel on the 72 back at Eastern in 1982. Next few years are going to be interesting for the regionals with all the mergers etc. There will be 3/4 majors left and maybe 3/4 super regionals all with large pilot groups that should be able to flex some muscle.

Mainline management could do it if they wanted to, nobody is arguing that, but they don't want to. They love having regionals around...UA Alpa is going to have the mother of all battles on their hands if they seriously intend to reel in scope. I suspect they compromise and that their real goal is to prevent any further scope erosion and maybe reel in the 70 seaters.

Huh? You're saying you'd fly a CRJ700 for Go Jet pay (CA max/15 yrs $93/hr; FO max/4 years $36. Really? Ok, put your money where your mouth is. Go ahead and take it.

I don't think you're speaking for a majority!

That's the point! Do you really think management is going to suddenly decide to pay you 2nd year SWA pay ($184/$92) to fly an RJ?!! Really? If you want the flying, you'll have to fly them for the going rate. You do NOT have management over a barrel!

not yet at least.

You never will. What pilots don't "get" is that management is smarter than us! We always think we have them backed into a corner, just to find they thought of something we hadn't considered! This is why contracts need to be renegotiated every 3-5 years instead of being permanent!

We aren't talking about me. We are talking about CAL/UAL whom has 147/1400+ on furlough. The J4J program has UAL furloughs flying the right seat of GoJets & Skywest for those wages right now. So taking back that flying at those payrates isn't a hit for them. It would get them back on line at mainline and they'd most likely end up under better work rules with the new contract, or in the case of Skywest work rules period.

If they have furloughees flying those airplanes while they aren't at mainline then it's clear that they'd have ZERO problems doing it at mainline under a better contract. As you've said, it's not all about $$$.

Regardless of the current rates, those jobs should be at mainline. I believe that 50 seat + and all Jets should be mainline flying.

Jerry A just post under your real name, jeez!

I love how the whole RJ is the argument to be paid less, I think this is what UAL pilots are trying to say as well, just because it's an RJ doesn't mean you have to be paid like sh!t. I and not saying they are going to give me a raise to $95 hr to throw gear, I could see $50-55 and hour to throw gear. I think the comparison is that if a guy goes to a major at year 5 from a regional, he will be in a much better position at year 10 at the major verses year 15 at the regional, probably about $100 an hour better. Anyway I hope there is a regional around in 20 years. At some point I think these majors are going to realize you get what you pay for and as in the case of Mesa, it is just a terrible product because they pay their FA's dirt and no one wants to work there, be interesting to see what the 1500 hr rule does when these regionals need 200 pilots a month off the street.

You're right. The +/- 1400 furloughees ar United are the wild card I hadn't considered. They'd probably take such a deal just to get back to mainline.

But that's only 1400 pilots. Where they get the other 5000 or so pilots flying RJs in UAL or CAL colors from? They can't interview, hire, and train that fast. it would have to be a staple.

Would you fly a CRJ700 for $93/hr at 15 years max? And why?

FWIW, the majority see's the CRJ700 and sees an annoyance, the CRJ900 and they see a threat, and the EMB175 as a WTH?

Had the EMB175 not been built, this would've garnered a lot less attention. Now to see a jet that is not an extended RJ flying and not a range limited BAE146 around for someone else, has gotten a lot of attention. Especially at UAL.

Heck, the CAL pilots see the Dash 8-400s as a direct 735 replacement and they're right.

And again, management, not to thrilled to have funded CHQ turned RAH turned Midwest and Frontier. I think next time they'll cut the next "we'll go it alone!" at the knees before they have the money to pull off purchasing profitable planes.

That's why the proposal is to bring it back under mainline progressively, over the course of several years.

Plus the fleet wouldn't be that big, the majority of 50 seaters probably wouldn't make it and would be parked until oil fell back to below $40-$50bb.

Anotherwords, you'd see a net reduction in jobs.

Unless you started replacing 50 seaters with 50 seat TPs.

Air Canada pilots fly the E175 and up.

That's a good point.

But Jazz pilots fly the CRJ900. Stupid, huh?

You miss the point but got one right, your not entitled to you job either at my expense, I agree the contracts can go away and they might; however, its not gona happen during this merger between CAL/UAL...With our merger with Skywest/ASA/XJT that makes 7000 pilots the fourth larget group within ALPA (less skywest not union) now i'm not a finger pointer but ALPA is not gona give that money up to protect anyones job...its about money and you and I can only go along for the ride...lawsuit, not from me it would be from the RJ operators, there not giving up without a fight, more then likely with the new regs. coming down the legacys will have to purchase the RJ operators just to fill the cockpit seats, but thats just me rambling....lookout things are a changing and it aint gona be easy on anyone...

You're mis-informed, Skywest will not be part of an asa/xjt merger. It has been agreed upon by managment and the xjt mec.

Would have been to messy, as someone said, its like trying to force your wife to have sex, rarely works out very well. Rumor is that JA agreed that any other ALPA carriers that get bought get merged, can't wait to see that scope language, just a rumor.

I am guessing JA told them he wants to get this deal done asap because he has a limited opportunity to purchase Comair, which will give him 80% of the Delta flying to go along with the new United flying. He has a ton of cash on hand (1 billion) so it is going to be hard for him to not agree to a very progressive contract to the new ASA now that ALPA played nice. Even Prater went to his temple and shook hands, would have loverd to see that handshake. We then get the ALPA Comair on our list when he buys it. And if he can't pay for it he will just throw the rest of SKYWEST healthcare out and trash their work rules to pay for it. Just a rumor.

Not sure I understand. You don't believe Continental is entitled to end the contract, per the contract, and fly a 737 in replacement of XJT's ERJ-145s?

Wouldn't all of that flying now be under ALPA's direction if it went to U/CAL? That'd be 519 aircraft or about 4,000 pilots now all paying ALPA dues with U/CAL in total control with no scope limits, no funding someone elses profits, no funding future competition and so on.

I mean if you're not going to have a whipsaw then the cost advantage is gone which means more opportunity for people who want to go to a mainline carrier then there is now.

Or worse, what's to stop airlines from funding a new Part 121 carrier, Commutair or reformed MESA, to start flying larger aircraft and restart the whipsaw? Get it in house, its better for everyone but the lifers who are going to ruin it for a lot of people.

No, I've been watching the slide for the last 10 years, so I fully have the point. UAL was 10,500 pilots big, and now we are 6,300. We were the highest dues paying pilot group in ALPA, and ALPA national did what to stop the carnage? Nothing, and this is how most of the 7000 guys/gals at Skywest Group got their jobs.

Lawsuits can be filed all day long by the RJ operators, but at the end of the day, they operate within their contract at the whim of their mainline parent's management. When the contract expires, if UAL doesn't renew the deal due to scope issues negotiated with the UAL/CAL pilots, there isn't anything to sue about! It's totally legal.

Look, I know how it feels to have your job threatened. I've lived this way every day for a over a decade since the wheels came off in 2000, watching friends get furloughed (twice), wondering if we are going to cease to exist, all the while watching more and more RJ's in our colors come in and take over flying that we used to do. I'm a former commuter guy, so I know the drill. During this time its been mega expansion, quick upgrades, and bigger and better equipment for regional pilots....good news for the percentage that want to have a career there. Pretending that ALPA is going to somehow step in and make a change one way or another is something I wouldn't hold my breath on. For individual airlines, ALPA is that pilot group, and they will look out for their own self interests. ALPA National won't factor into this decision.

Now, what will happen? Who knows. I've got my own guess, but at our MEC's request, I don't talk about it in public. I do know that the first section that I'll be turning to in the eventual TA is going to be Scope.

Of course I'm not entitled to my job! But for the first time in a VERY long time, I see an opportunity to take back some of the painful, horrific, life-changing losses we've endured. I'm pretty confident the 11000 pilots of CAL/UAL all pretty much feel the same way. Good luck to us all.

jetBlue successfully flies the E190 at $143 an hour (plus overtime) for a 12 year Captain. We can start the discussion there and work backwards to the smaller airframes.

The proposal had the regional flying phased out over time. It wasn't a flip the switch type of deal.

Quoted from Dow Jones "The proposal from the Continental and United pilots includes an initial cap on outsourcing, then a move away from the practice over what Pierce described as "multiple years"."

I think this is a great plan. The contract carriers have time for adjustment and can plan ahead several years, when the contracts aren't renewed. In the mean time it gives CAL/UAL time to recall and train the pilots that were furloughed.

It's an old book, but "Who Moved My Cheese" is a must read for anyone flying under a UAL/CAL contract. I hope everyone flying under one of those contracts takes the time to prepare for the changes in the future.

I really hope that your fellow pilots feel the same way. Good luck

Wrong yet again. Nothing has been agreed to. If SKW wont meet the still un-decided scope requirements of xjt alpa in the new contract then it will go to court. SKW management is waiting for XJT's proposal. If the proposal is turned down by SKW management then they will submit their counter-offer or let it go to court. If the court rules in xjt's pilots favor SKW management may pull out of the deal. If it rules in favor of SKW management then XJt just lost a huge bargaining chip.

Good post.

FWIW, for better or for worse:

Delta's PWA (starting January 2011), we did negotiate CRJ900 pay:
EMB195 12 YR A = 131.63, EMB190/CRJ900 12 YR A = 111.98
EMB195 12 YR B = 89.90. EMB190/CRJ900 12 YR B = 76.48

SKW CRJ900 12 YR A / B = $86 / $44
OH CRJ700 12 YR A / B = $83 / $43
ASA CRJ700 12 YR A / B = $87 / $45
JB E190 12 YR A / B = $143, $97
RAH E190 12 YR A / B = $96 / $37
Airtran 717/737 12 YR A / B = $153 / $79
AE CRJ700 12 YR A / B = $91 / $41

For comparison, and mind you this is chapter 11 pay rates, for 2011 pay for the MD88/MD90 12 YR A is 161/165, B is 110/112.

My question is, why are regional pilots not worth more pay? I think you are. ;)

But it probably isn't happening until the planes are at mainline and money isn't being spent to finance an entire seperate company and its guaranteed profit.

It is better for everyone that UCAL wins this section 1 battle.

Ding ding ding, winner winner of a chicken dinner, great post, and lifers think it is all worth it $50-60 and hour for QOL, why would we want to change it. 5 legs a day in Texas in August is no QOL!

Thanks for the info! Good to know. jetBlue definitely raised the bar on this one, and it looks to me like it IS doable. Where the hell is that popcorn icon? :)

as someone with only 1000 hours flying 100 hours a month with a horrible QOL and even worse pay with nothing but more of the same in my future, this was a very interesting thread to read. It looks like you mainline guys are trying to make great steps towards the future of this industry and deserve a sincere thank you from me.

I don't believe you.

Back to topic, good luck with this fight to all at the new UA/CAL. It will be a good thing in every way imaginable to bring all the lift in house.

All the talk at my reserve unit with the Jet Blue guys is that Jet Blue is going Union one way or another, either in house or ALPA.

Sorry Conited pilots, that ship set sail long, long ago...with help from the very mainline pilots that now oppose it! I love this industry!