CAL/UAL Pilots Wanna stop Outsourcing to Reg
 

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...27-706936.html

By Doug Cameron

Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES



HOUSTON (Dow Jones)-Pilots at Continental Airlines Inc. (CAL) and UAL Corp.'s (UAUA) United Airlines want to end outsourcing of flying to regional partners following their planned merger, a move likely to shake up the industry's already turbulent labor relations.

The companies' pilots aim to finalize a new joint contract by the end of the year, and this week proposed bringing all flying in-house over a period of years following a merger that would create the world's largest airline by revenue.

U.S. network airlines have outsourced large parts of their domestic networks to an array of regional airlines over the past 20 years in a bid to cut costs, though the amount is capped by "scope" clauses in their pilots' collective bargaining agreements.

Jay Pierce, head of Continental's pilots' union, expects the proposal to receive a cool reception from management, but said mainline company pilots can fly regional jets just as cheaply following years of contract concessions.

"We put it on the table [on Wednesday]," said Pierce in an interview at the union's Houston office. "It's a proposition we believe will not be readily acceptable [to management]."

Continental Airlines has one of the industry's most restrictive scope clauses. Only mainline pilots can fly jets with more than 50 seats, and the airline contracts ExpressJet Holdings Inc. (XJT) to fly more than 200 smaller Embraer aircraft on its behalf.

United has more flexible work practices that enable it to fly more than 150 70-seat regional jets. Rising fuel costs have made 50-seat jets less economic, while the emergence of new aircraft in the 70 to 130-seat range have made airlines look to loosen the restrictions of existing scope clauses.

The proposal from the Continental and United pilots includes an initial cap on outsourcing, then a move away from the practice over what Pierce described as "multiple years".

Continental declined comment.

Management throughout the industry has become stuck in a mindset where they feel they have to subcontract more flying, said Pierce.

U.S. network airlines have already carved out almost all of their regional flying units. AMR Corp. (AMR) is working on plans that could lead to a sale or spin-off of its American Eagle business, and Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL) recently sold two of its three remaining regional operations.

Pierce said he is confident a new pilots' deal can be hammered out with Continental and United by year-end, in line with the airlines' merger schedule, though a decision will be taken Oct. 12 whether enough progress has been made to continue the current fast pace of negotiations.

The airlines and the pilots have learned lessons from previous mergers, especially the combination of America West to form an enlarged US Airways Group Inc. (LCC), where labor issues remain unresolved after five years. Pilots at Delta and Northwest Airlines forged a joint deal before the two carriers merged in 2008.

"Being third is good," said Pierce. He said one of the thorniest issues - merging the airlines' pilot seniority lists - won't be tackled until a new contract is agreed.

Other areas include furloughs. United has more than 1,400 pilots on furlough while Continental has 147, all of whom Pierce expects to be called back by year-end. The transition deal calls for furloughed United pilots to be called back to whichever airline requires them before any fresh hiring.

SCOPE is EVERYTHING !

Well Done! I seriously hope the CAL/UNITED Pilots can pull this off with management. This would be huge for anyone looking to one day get out of the regionals. Keep up the good works guys!

We can only hope. It's in the mainlines hands....again.

Proof will be in the pudding. If it is so important they will protect CALs scope during the merger at all costs.

We will see what happen.

Come on. It never has been just in mainlines hands or the regionals hands.

Sure mainline has to push for all flying to be at mainline, where it used to be and should be, with good wages and work rules that make this a professional career not just a job.

At the same time regional pilots are just as responsible. Every time one carrier undercuts another to get more flying or is willing to fly larger aircraft for less money they are making it more difficult for mainline to regain flying. Also every time a new commercial pilot goes to work for the cheapest contractor or alter ego because they just want to build time and move on, they just continue to feed the beast.

It's hard to have a spine and demand things when other people keep cutting you off at the knees.

Every one needs to raise their expectaions of what the rewards of being a professional pilot are. If pilots aren't willing to fly for peanuts the planes simply will not move.

Wrong. It has always been, and still is, 100% in the hands of mainline. It's their flying, not anyone else's, and they need to secure it.

Regional wages are defined by the entry-level, which means flight instructors. Even if they have a clue, which they usually don't, they are not likely to pass up a regional job if it means remaining a CFI. A few will hold out for a non-bottom-feeder, but that's about the most you're going to get out of them. The idea that they are going to hold out for higher wages is ludicrous.

By the time they are making a regional decision they are past V1, the flight training scam industry has already sucked them dry and left them in debt beyond any rational expectation of return on investment. The only things that will help at th entry-level are...

- Responsible financing: It seems as though lenders may be wising up on this. We can only hope.

- ATP Requirement: In addition to enhancing safety, this should scare away some of the zero-to-hero wannabes at the get-go and also raise entry-level wages to something at least livable.

- Education: Too many newbies have "misconceptions" (actually lies perpetuated by puppy mills and aviation colleges) about the impending "pilot shortage"... they think they will be a $300K+ widebody CA 5-6 years after CPL. There's no formal way to address this, it's more of a grass roots kind of thing. We can do it here on the various forums, or face-to-face if you stumble on someone interested a flying career. Actually alpa could organize some thing like this...sponsor volunteer-staffed pilot-career info sessions at local airports. The alpa name would be enough to draw in attendees. It wouldn't cost much at all, but I suspect the ROI would be very good.

If and when we do put a stop to outsourcing to regionals I wonder if all the RJ brethren at ALPA will lash back? Not that I care what they think but this could be the beginning of what finally either splits ALPA or gets us on the same page.

I'm personally sick and tired of my dues and job going to other ALPA groups who's only means of economic viability is undercutting wages. Go get your own marketing department and start selling tickets under your own name, oh wait, you can't.

KC

Amusing post from a former regional pilot. If there's one thing you can always count on is how unified a pilot group will be about pulling up the ladder behind themselves.

I hope CAL/UAL get this locked down, but I'm not going to stand here and throw mud at everyone who is a few years younger than me though.

KC- There are a few ALPA regional carriers who have held the bar and refused to bid on flying for crap wages and adding mainline furloughs. I agree with your posting but wanted to point out that not all have gone down the wrong path.

Express Jet, Air Wis, and Trans States have tried to not worsen with not flying more than 50 seaters.


I believe that lesson's were learned from the bankrucpy era that will not be repeated again. Way too many dreams, marriages, and bank accounts were ruined so that upper management could profit at mainline's expense. As a CRJ pilot now I am extremely hopeful that CAL/UAL ALPA can pull this off. It would be a step in the right direction and return the furloughs back to the flightdeck and open the doors to regional pilots like myself who are ready to move on!

On the Dues front there is better communication than ever before between mainline and express carriers at ALPA. UAL, CAL, DAL all have joint standing committee's where mainline MEC's and regional MEC's discuss issues and have FWD thinking rather than taking away. So on the ALPA front I am hopeful. Now to get airlines like SKYW and Republic to get onboard we might then be heading in the correct path.

So here is to putting a positive spin on the merger and I am really counting on UA and CAL to hold the bar high.

In theory this is a great step in the direction I truly believe we want to see the industry move. Very few of us starting commercial flying with the idea that our careers would begin and end flying regional aircraft for regional pay/benefits/work rules. Yet here we are. Fighting each other for the scraps that fall off the mainline dinner table.

But . . . . . I am calling boloney on this. This is going to end up being a negotiating tactic for higher pay/benefits for mainline pilots ONLY. In exchange for continued and possibly expanded outsourcing, mainline pilots at UAL/CAL will take a yet to be determined pay raise/benefit increase/work rule change offered by management.

If anybody on this thread truly believes that UAL/CAL pilots will hold out on this one for the "good of the profession" or any other high and mighty moral reason, please share what you are smoking with the rest of us. Quit bogarting the hookah!! :D

If history is any indication you've just hit the nail on the head.

10 years ago I would have said it was a negotiation tactic, but with the erosion of wages at mainline and loss of brand identity, there is definately a push to bring flying in house (and I feel not just at CAL/UAL). It will depend on what they can negotiate to keep the flying competitive. I'm sure the pilots will be pushing the Colgan accident as a reason why if the name is on the side of the aircraft, then pilots under that airline should be in the cockpit. It is a new turn of things, but I wouldn't write it off as a negotiation tactic just yet.

Your post blows my mind. I still can't believe that some people think this. Look around!!! 1400 UAL pilots on furlough! 94 737's parked in the last 2 years and who is replacing the flying? REGIONALS!!! CRJ700/900's!! And you honestly think they're going to sell out more? :confused:

This is pilots telling management it's over. You want any more airplanes, then you're gonna bring them to mainline. This game is destroying lives, & it's over.

Payrates do no good if there aren't any seats to put your keester in to earn them. This was realized long ago.

I'm curious as to why the NWA/Delta merger did not result in the same reduction in scope demand from their pilots? It was the perfect time with lots of available leverage to make a similar demand.

Your guess is as good as mine. I was on probation and had no option to vote.

Yeah, this is probably the truth. Pilots will demand 100% scope, UA will want more outsourcing, they will compromise in the middle.

Remember, every underpaid RJ drivers subsidizes the higher wages of a mainline pilot. Even if mainline pilots were to agree to fly all the RJ's at current regional rates everyone knows that would not last past the next contract. There's only so much of the pie to go around, and the senior mainline folks would have to give something up to acquire RJ scope.

We can hope that they will hold the current line, but I would be amazed if scope gets rolled back any.

...while we're at it, I believe a ban is in order on the "Guppy Killer" bag stickers I've seen some E170/190 guys display. You know who you are and you know who I'm talking about. Makes me wanna barf all over their gear. Some of these kats just don't get it... Yeah, I know you're not to blame that you have to fly mainline-type birds for regional wages, but in the big picture, it's not helping our profession and really doesn't say much for moral character or respect for this career when you display this type of "in your face" pride. :mad:

It especially makes me upset when I think of (and keep in touch with) the regional guys I used to work with who'd moved on to Mainline and gave up their seniority during the brief hiring bump, only to be furloughed during their NH-IGS.

The company wants the cheapest price (regionals / outsourcing / any other scheme). Some pilots will want all that flying, even at a pay cut.

The rest of the pilots (IMHO) will compromise on mostly status quo. Or more outsourcing in exchange for regional flying (ya, like that'll happen). Or more regionals for less outsourcing. Or the cheapest option for airlines... promise of future big planes and MORE outsourcing / regionals.

I'd love to see ALPA take a poll of all CAL/UAL pilots with their opinions about the above.

I'm not sure about 100%. While scope giveaway via negotiation and/or BK has been a Mgt victory, their real victory is getting pilots to fly 100 seat jets for only a few dollars more than 50 seat jets.

All the people saying the 50 seat jet is dead, that is only so because mgmts were able to get the same pilots to agree to fly even larger jets for just small percentages more, so you get 50-100% more seats for a 10% greater cost.

If they can convince regional pilots or RAH for instance to fly 150 seat jets for just a couple more dollars per hour, they will have really found a way to gut wages to the core.
Luv

I still say that none of this bodes well for pilots at the regional level. Anyone with more than 5 years of seniority would have a lot to lose in if this plan were to come to fruition. Obviously, the majority of us would want to be at major because that is where the pay, benefits, etc...are superior to what we have at a regional.
There are other ways around this if the justification is safety and standardization, however this costs money...LOTS of money from a training/flight standards perspective. I don't believe that this proposal is under the auspices of trying to achieve a true "single-level of safety" that is a tenet of both ALPA and also government (FAA policy). At least this is what both organizations like to say to the press and flying public. Anyone that truly believes that is naive at best and stupid at worst. "single-level of safety" is a myth.
What this all about is the reality facing the piloting profession in the United States and where most of the flying has been heading, the "regional" (this moniker is also obsolete given they fly mainline routes now). Now that "Open Skies" has become law, we face the very real possibility of cabotage or the so-called "6th freedom" under the Bermuda II agreement (I think that is correct) that defines what a flag carrier can and cannot do.
After all is said and done...2012 age 65 retirement spike flattens, what is going to be left is a whole lot LESS mainline jobs. So, cabotage, open-skies, reduction of capacity, reduction of jobs, etc...Is putting pressure on ALPA to re-trench and cater to the pilots that pay the most dues and butter their bread. I support ALPA and am an ALPA member, but I am learning more and more that irregardless of what propoganda comes out of national. ALPA is geared toward the legacies. They have a lot of work to do to convince many of us in the dregs of aviation otherwise. They want all the protections, all the security of maintaining their position. As we simply called it in the military, "a rice bowl issue"...

Exactly. $37 an hour for 99 seats........and it's still all Mainlines fault.

This is a management victory. It is not directly the fault of mainline pilots, but indirectly it is the result of scope relaxations.

There are two groups of airline pilots in the country...

- The "traditional" track: This includes mainline, as well as regional pilots who aspire to bigger things. They both want growth at the higher end of the profession (mainline)...they are in favor of mainline scope.

- The "Lifer" track: These are regional pilots who are not going anywhere, for whatever reason. A few are merely substandard products, but many are simply trapped by circumstance, timing, and the decline of the industry. They have a COMPLETELY different outlook...the ONLY way they are going to get (significantly) more pay and/or better QOL is through the acquisition of larger airplanes. They will do this at the expense of other regionals and mainline, even if they do catastrophic damage for the sake of a few small gains for themselves. What do they have to lose? Since they are sidelined from the "traditional" career track, they don't feel the need to "do the right thing" or "stand up for the profession" since it will not help them at all...and might even cost them their jobs at the peak of their "career".

You don't have to like them, but you can't really blame them given their position.

Regional pilot group leadership tends to consist of these guys, so even if the majority of regional pilots don't want cheap 100 seat payscales, the proposals put forth for vote will likely be generated by guys who do want large airplanes.

What's the solution? I don't know. The only thing I can think of that might bring those lifer guys onboard would be for Cal-nited to say offer seniority numbers to every single UAX pilot as they take back all RJ scope. Even that might not be enough...20+ years regional CA's get paid better and have better QOL than UA/CO new hires.

"What's the solution? I don't know. The only thing I can think of that might bring those lifer guys onboard would be for Cal-nited to say offer seniority numbers to every single UAX pilot as they take back all RJ scope. Even that might not be enough...20+ years regional CA's get paid better and have better QOL than UA/CO new hires."

That would be a tough sell to those who left behind 10+ years of seniority at the regional, to make the move to a major, only to lose out on seniority to the guy who never tried to better himself at the regional.

I think you're on the right track, but I don't see a major flying a 50 seat A/C ever, even at the regional level, this plane is proving hard to make a profit. I can see 90 seat lift replacing 70 seat lift. The regional will never go away, there will always be a place in the structure for small short hop feed into super hubs. But the 7000 pilot regionals that are being formed today, aren't being created by management to get even bigger, they are hedges against future scope. SKYW isn't buying XJT because they believe 50 seat lift is over, they are eliminating competetion in the future should scope restrict their 70 seat growth.

Ultimately the lifer at the regional, never has to leave. But his larger better paying equipment might. So while the lifer can stay till 65 at the regional, the non-lifer would have much better job prospects in the future if this were to take place.

i hope this goes thru - about time things start turning in a good direction !

This has nothing to do with "pulling up the ladder behind themselves" or anything else. It has to do with correcting a big contractual f-up ALPA has not really addressed, creeping scope.

As a former regional dude I mean no harm to anybody or there families, as if this passes there will many layoffs. I'm just personally tired of being furloughed and seeing a UAX barbie-jet flying a route I flew last week. We have to get all flying back to the mainlines. If anybody here feel's this is out of line then you are just wrong.

Frats-

KC

Uh, no, I respectfully disagree. Mgmt would have you believe this as they lower the ticket price to "capture" the new lower cost of labor. There is no pie you speak of, that is just mgmt trying to plot one group against another.

Nothing should be given up on the mainline side. I am not ashamed to be paid what I believe EVERY pilot is worth. Its already not worth what it was 5 years ago, which is a shame.

An RJ driver "subsidizes" nobody except themselves. If I was a plumber and decided to underbid everybody else in the market am I "subsidizing" the other highly paid plumbers or just ultimately putting myself out of business?

KC

I agree with you 100% KC. I flew for Eastern Express, United Express and American Eagle before getting on at a mainline airline. With the exception of a very limited number of 146's it was all turbo props flying to cities that couldn't support jet loads. At a weak moment, the mainline pilots opened the door to jets and the rest is history. It is time to get all of the jet flying back, it can't happen overnight as their are multi year agreements, but it can happen. It sickens me to see RJ's occupying all of the gates in LAX terminal 8 that were formerly used by 737's flying to the same destinations (Phoenix, Tucson, Portland etc...). I still don't understand how United couldn't make money with aircraft that were paid for that now sit in the desert.

Mainline def needs to "take it back" We shall see if that actually happens though and to what extent. If the regionals want to fly mainline routes, then they should "pay to play". ;)

I like that idea. Perhaps regionals should have to generate thier own revenue. Lease routes from mainline, pay a franchise fee and a percentage of overall profits, while competing with each other on who can pay mainline the most in order to utilize the paint and reputation of the mainline operation. Then this money could be used to subsidize the lavish lifestyle of the mainline pilots through a profit sharing scheme.:D

Or, Mainline could do all the flying themselves. I would still be satisfied to fly 50 seaters at reasonable rates at mainline.

I agree what you said about the stated problem but now you see this as a problem even though you were apart of it not so long ago?

The way you worded that suggests that mainline folks who gave their blessing to the dawn of the RJ outsourcing fiasco are somehow not part of the problem. Surely you don't think that's the case.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am currently part of the problem, as you put it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Were I to end up back out on the street because mainline reclaimed the flying they've outsourced to my Mickey Mouse operation, I'd consider it a joyous victory.

Those individuals have long since retired--with salaries and pensions that won't be seen by you and me, my friend.

for management the beauty of this scam is that it pits labor against labor. Maybe this generation will see past their trickery and actually leave the profession better than we found it.

So, you're saying that everyone at the legacies retired in the last 15 years or so? Sweet!!!

If a regional wanted relaxed scope, it has to come from the majors... not the other way around.

Scope has been given away by the majors, and anybody who was a regional pilot and now sitting at the majors, cursing those damn Barbie jets, is exactly the type of "useful idiot" that management loves.

I understand your resentment toward hypocrisy, but I disagree with your statement.

The folks at the majors now who have experienced the regional lifestyle to its fullest are IMO much more likely to vote to keep scope than the people who have never experienced today's "regional" lifestyle.

I agree ..take it back... all of it.. is the only way... tooo many obstacles.
-- Try getting Mainline pilots to fly small jets for what the company is willing to pay... NOT ( oh.. thats part of the reason this situation is what it is )
-- I find it sad that some above said he was tired of being furloughed.... but 1000's of other would be furloughed if this came about... lives ruined...etc... just like what has happened already.....
-- Rick is right....there is a large group of regional pilots ... fairly senior CAs who make 80-120K per year....live in base... have great seniority.. good QOL.. and they are not going anywhere... NO incentive for them to support this
-- These regionals are LARGE corporations in and unto themselves..they are NOT going to go gracefully into the night and just close down without a fight ( buy them is the best way ) ..this is the reason RAH is doing what it has been doing... BB years ago foresaw the possible reduction in regional feed and made a decision to some way some how become a big plane airline... we will see how that works out
-- Its pretty ballsy to use the premise that regional guys should just fold up shop... and take one for the team... and HOPE they might get picked up by a major carrier...hum... yea.
-- I hope some way it can happen, the only way I see that it even having a chance is for the mainline carriers to just fold the code sharing regionals into the company as mainline employees. Anything else if fraught with peril.

Herc Driver you seem upset with the prospect of possibly losing your job based on the decisions of others. How do you think the mainline pilots feel that have been furloughed, many of us twice? 70 seaters at United came about because of a backroom deal by one MEC chairman, zero input from the pilots. "Fraught with Peril"? There were no complaints from the regional pilots when they went from flying 30 seat turb props making $40K a year to $120K flying 70-90 seat jets. I think that you will find there are plenty of furloughed mainline pilots and even those on the property that are making $70k a year that would jump at the chance to fly them at those wages. What exactly are the regional pilots going to do to stop it from occuring?

Absolutely nothing. Remain status quo.

Who is John Galt?

This is a great question? Anyone else with answers on where this issue was during the Dal/Nwa negotiation?